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by Planktonne 919 days ago
If that was true, then all mathematics teaching would be both impossible and superfluous.

You don't choose whether or not to process the audio, but you absolutely do choose to do the mathematical processing to arrive at an answer. If that's a struggle to contemplate, increase the complexity of the problem until you can't reach the answer in one step, and then you should see the chain of thought.
1 comments
ethanbond 919 days ago
> you absolutely do choose to do the mathematical processing

And what makes you decide to choose to do the mathematical processing? Where does that signal come from?

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Planktonne 919 days ago
As above, that's a separate issue and irrelevant to this once. Once a choice has been made regardless of the drivers of that initial choice, there is conscious direction of thought through the resultant process.

Same question again: do you really have no experience of logically and consciously working through a process?

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ethanbond 919 days ago
The drivers of the initial choice (and really every choice thereafter) is the entire question. The universe has deterministic processes and it has random processes. The brain has deterministic processes and (potentially) random processes. Neither type of process creates room for anything resembling "free will." There is nowhere in the known universe for this to occur.

No of course I experience the same thing you experience. My argument is that it's an illusion, and it's one that you can actually peel away yourself.

Close your eyes and clear your mind -- you'll find thoughts simply emerging. Eventually, the thought to give up and open your eyes will occur to you. You didn't choose to have that thought prior to it appearing. Following that first thought, you might then give up, or you might have another thought not to give up. One of those thoughts will just immediately become the next behavior. In either case, you didn't choose those impulses prior to their appearance and you didn't choose which one ultimately turned into behavior.

So not only is there zero believable physical explanation as to how and where free will could exist, the subjective evidence doesn't pass even a basic "close your eyes and observe your own cognition" test.

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Planktonne 919 days ago
Your experience of cognition isn't universal, and asserting a universal law based on your subjective experience is tenuous at best. There's a reason we've been discussing these exact ideas for millenia, rather than settling it all immediately. Other people report very different conceptualisations of cognition - why is theirs an illusion and not yours an ellision?

> No of course I experience the same thing you experience.

It really doesn't sound like you do. Other people experience a decision making process -- one where they pick the impulse to follow or deny -- that is at least as valid as your immediate blur from thought to action. Many people are capable of having thoughts without acting on them, or of weighing up multiple thoughts, or of chaining together multiple thoughts (carry the 1, rotate this cube in your mind, etc.) towards a goal.

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ethanbond 919 days ago
Thankfully my argument doesn’t actually hinge on subjective experience, yours does.

My explanation is dependent only on the known laws of the universe and biological systems. Your argument is effectively that those don’t matter because your subjective experience seems different. I disagree that’s what even your subjective experience really is, if you decided to pay close attention to it, but again it’s not actually important for my argument.

This was a somewhat reasonable debate before we came to understand that decisions, behaviors, sensory processing are done by the brain (or the biological system more holistically). Now we do understand that. So now in light of that, where does your phenomenon take place?

The universe has two kinds of phenomena, as far as we know: deterministic and random. Neither leaves room for free will. So again: where does it happen? Is our understanding of the physical universe wrong? Does thinking not happen in the brain? Is the brain exempt from physical laws?

Is there a better option that I’m failing to imagine?

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hiAndrewQuinn 917 days ago
To break the walls down on this thread, interested folks probably want to look at the question of qualia and the knowledge argument before they start wondering about free will in particular.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia-knowledge/

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