[zbyte64]

We always ignore Nordic unions when ever we trash talk unions. If things were as easy as black and white then there wouldn't even be a need to debate, the productive non-union businesses would just slay and everyone would be working for them.

[alephnerd]

> ignore Nordic unions

In Sweden (the largest industrial hub in Scandinavia), unions don't collectively negotiate wages with employers - they collectively set wages across an entire industry with the government and business management (think Syndicalism, which is the primary industrial philosophy in Europe compared to the US).

Also, blue collar membership has declined after the 2008 Financial Crisis dealt a killing blow to Volvo and Saab. Blue Collar union membership in Sweden peaked at 85% in the 1990s but has fallen to 59% in 2019.

Some American unions (primarily UAW and Teamsters) would have to fundamentally reform in order to act like European unions, and they would assuredly fight tooth and nail against such a change. Also, the kind of sector level salary negotiations common in Europe might fall foul of American collusion laws, and might anyhow be unpopular with local chapters (hypothetical example: if UAW and all major automotive manufacturers decided to set wages at South Carolina levels nationally, that would be a pay cut in the Midwest).

[zbyte64]

UAW already went through some reforms which is arguably why they're experiencing a surge in popularity. In particular Shawn Fien was part of UAWD's 1 member, 1 vote initiative: https://uawd.org/

The characterization that they would eschew reform even when it would boost their popularity is not reflected in current events (certainly the managerial friendly unions of the past would avoid reforms)

[alephnerd]

Those reforms aren't comparable to Swedish (which I'll use as a stand in for Nordic) Unions.

At the end of the day, unions in Europe are much more pro-business management than any union in the US can ever dare.

For example, Swedish unions didn't go on strike when Geely fired thousands of Swedish autoworkers when acquiring Volvo, and German (yes not Nordic) unions haven't fought for salary increases leading to German salaries remaining stagnant since the 2000s, while helping German corporations like Volkswagen, Daimler, etc remain competitive globally.

In the US, unions will go militant and remain independent of the government and management because they are grassroots driven. In Europe, unions are subordinated to the government and management, as Union leaders end up joining both.

[Der_Einzige]

I'm not even trash talking unions. I love unions because I love the idea of workers being lazy (unironically!)

But, from the buyers perspective, I don't want union hands touching my car. I also will NEVER buy a volvo because they're bad cars from every standpoint except safety. This is the brand that though a turbo, supercharged hybrid drive-train would be a good idea in an SUV. The SUV isn't even that fast despite it!

[missedthecue]

You mean... like tech companies?

[zbyte64]

A tech unicorn slays, but for how long? I do think the intention of most American tech companies is to financialize some aspect of the market, and that is lucrative and "slays" - but I think such arrangements are moats built with sand. Without that angle, a tech company is just another goods or service and looks less like Uber and more like the gaming industry.