[Dalewyn]

I'm not sure if you just didn't notice, but public and private gatherings were unilaterally outlawed just 2~3 years ago in the name of national emergencies.

The freedoms we enjoy here in the west are closer to erasure than you realize.

[ethanbond]

“Unilaterally” outlawed by elected governments who can be peacefully deposed, that is to say, not unilaterally at all.

It’s worth being paranoid about our freedoms, which is why I take issue with the characterization that we are just the same as China and Russia. We are neither as helpless nor as victimized as those people.

[lbeltrame]

> “Unilaterally” outlawed by elected governments who can be peacefully deposed, that is to say, not unilaterally at all.

Well... It took one signature on an administrative act and almost everyone in Italy, not in China, was under house arrest for 70 days with armed soldiers on the streets. No oversight, no checks and balances, no constitution, nothing. This warrants being very careful of any government activity.

And at some point someone even suggested to postpone elections.

But more on topic, the only reason the Commission is going gung-ho is because of the elections next year. They are very afraid.

[ethanbond]

Is your impression that democracies function by referendum on every major issue, especially during moments of crisis?

> And at some point someone even suggested to postpone elections.

I'm sorry someone suggested that.

> But more on topic, the only reason the Commission is going gung-ho is because of the elections next year They are very afraid.

Right, because they in fact don't have unilateral power.

[lbeltrame]

It is my impression that checks and balances, constitutions etc need to work exactly in times of crisis. If they only work when everything is all right, they are useless. Especially when it comes to freedom.

The fact that a government minister even wrote in a book (hastily taken off the market) that he hoped the situation would be used for "a new cultural hegemony" speaks volumes.

Didn't dictatorships always use justifications for threats or emergencies to be instated?

An emergency doesn't justify taking away fundamental freedoms. Hence, anything the EU does in this space, justified or not, must be scrutinized.

[ethanbond]

> It is my impression that checks and balances, constitutions etc need to work exactly in times of crisis. If they only work when everything is all right, they are useless. Especially when it comes to freedom.

Agreed, but you haven't demonstrated that these checks and balances have been violated. At least in the US, authority was exercised and at times found overreaching and at times found well-within Constitutional bounds. That's exactly those checks and balances functioning correctly.

> The fact that a government minister even wrote in a book (hastily taken off the market) that he hoped the situation would be used for "a new cultural hegemony" speaks volumes.

What volumes does it speak?

> Didn't dictatorships always use justifications for threats or emergencies to be instated?

Nope, not always. And even if that were true, it's also true that threats or emergencies have sometimes required extraordinary government action that didn't result in dictatorships.

> An emergency doesn't justify taking away fundamental freedoms. Hence, anything the EU does in this space, justified or not, must be scrutinized.

Of course not. But obviously the debate is what is "a fundamental freedom" and what counts as "taking away." Sure, scrutinize away. Just don't assume that lockdown == illegal == immoral == people don't agree with it == you can just assert that it was illegitimate. People elected the governments they elected, a crisis emerged, and those governments did what they felt they were elected to do, and if you disagree you just vote for different leaders next time around. That's how it works. We're obviously not going to do snap elections every time a new crisis emerges.

[lbeltrame]

> Agreed, but you haven't demonstrated that these checks and balances have been violated.

I mentioned specifically Italy, because that's where I live and where our freedoms where completely thrown out of the window by, as I said, an administrative act (not even the equivalent of an executive order, nor a law), from one day to another. An act that shouldn't have had that force, but well... rules were bent.

(A year later, people were also deprived of their ability to go to school or to work, which regardless of the reason, was equally bad)

> What volumes does it speak?

That while the event wasn't predicted, it sparked ideas on how to "revolutionize" society in a "different" way (the actual passage was about taking the pandemic as an opportunity to bring forth "a new cultural hegemony of the left"), not caring about consequences.

And we see the same with other aspect of society (misinformation, climate policies...). Some EU commissioners (Timmermanns to name one, until he was in office) are hell-bent in that direction (although this time there's significant pushback).

> those governments did what they felt they were elected to do

Outside my country, in many others (e.g. Spain), courts actually said that well, governments weren't allowed to do what they did.