[steveBK123]

My team was product managed by a gutless PM who essentially made senior devs & tech leads do all the legwork.

Requirements gathering, mean user upset about a bug, weekly status call, need to break some bad news re: priorities? - send a senior dev or tech lead. Skipped most of the agile ceremonies too, busy guy. Never wrote or edited a JIRA ticket, that was for tech org to manage. He PMd 2 other tech teams the same way.

Tech leads/senior devs knew our PM was bad news from his first week but he outlived all of us until finally getting hit with a RIF after 4 years.

Management worshipping at the throne of agile become really enthralled with these guys and can derail an org for years. In theory a PMs stakeholders are the users, but in practice it is buffing the egos of the senior management that hired them. Can become a self reinforcing closed loop between senior management / agile consultants / PMs.

[idopmstuff]

> He PMd 2 other tech teams the same way.

I'm with you that all of this is bad PM work, but this seems to be the root cause. I've been at a startup like this where there weren't enough PMs to start and then a couple left, which just led to the rest being stretched across more teams.

You just can't do much of anything useful in this situation - your existence consists of preparing for and attending stakeholder meetings. I guess some people thrive on the pseudo-glorified existence of "managing" a bunch of different teams, but I found it to be as miserable as you seem to have found it from the eng side. I was there to spend time with customers and designers and engineers, and after a few months of doing none of those things, I quit without a job lined up.

Once you get to that point, it can become even worse because you end up in this doom loop of management realizing that the core PM work is getting delegated to eng, thinking that this means they don't need as many PMs and then delegating more work to eng.

[Jensson]

> Once you get to that point, it can become even worse because you end up in this doom loop of management realizing that the core PM work is getting delegated to eng, thinking that this means they don't need as many PMs and then delegating more work to eng.

At least that is better than eng doing the PM work and the PM getting all the credit for it.

[steveBK123]

Exactly. "Oh no, the team doing all the work and covering for the other team is going to get the incremental resource increases".

Yes. If a team is incapable of either doing their job or in advocating for needing more resources to do their job, then they do not get to have more resources. Particularly when another team is covering for this gap, typically, engineering.

It never goes the other way right? How many times are PMs picking up JIRA tickets, handling bug fixes, joining on-call rotas, etc type tasks that engineering does?

If non-engineering roles/orgs are created to take load of engineering, and are incapable of doing so, then they need not exist. This goes for DevOps/CloudOps/SRE/Support/QA/Product/Project Mgmt/etc.

You can run a lean startup consisting entirely of 3 engineers. But you can't run a lean startup consisting entirely of 3 SRE/QA/Product/whathaveyou.

This is not a knock on these other orgs/roles. In a well functioning shop, they are essential. But when orgs like Product forget that the tail doesn't wag the dog.. bad things follow for everyone.

[ath3nd]

> Management worshipping at the throne of agile become really enthralled with these guys and can derail an org for years. In theory a PMs stakeholders are the users, but in practice it is buffing the egos of the senior management that hired them. Can become a self reinforcing closed loop between senior management / agile consultants / PMs.

Beautifully put!

[ryandrake]

This was the way in almost every place I've worked. If you did a good job at managing upward and schmoozing and stroking the senior management's ego, and had those smooth "ivy leaguer" mannerisms, then it didn't even matter if you did your job. You were the Golden Boy and destined for greatness. But if you were too busy actually doing your job and didn't properly pet your management chain, you were setting yourself up to be the scapegoat.

[aperson_hello]

This is exactly the problem. If you do your job as a PM, you get pushed out because doing your job means you'll be ruffling feathers in senior management. So to stick around, you schmooze instead of doing your job because doing your job properly invariably pisses off management at some point