[alanwreath]

> morals our societies held for hundreds/thousands of years were held to justify slavery, blood sacrifice, antisemitism, genocide…

People will be people with or without religion, no need to make the leap and claim the reason for the season was to retain all the horrible practices you describe.

[MeImCounting]

Religion may not have been the reason those things were done but has absolutely been used to justify every one of those things. Religion is the tool not necessarily the cause.

[filoleg]

Absolurely agreed. If it wasn’t for religion, it would’ve been for something else. Religion was just a background theme/cause for it, but not the reason.

A good analogy that comes to mind is what triggered WW1. Sure, we all know that it kicked off due to the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. One thing I remember vividly from that time period being covered in my history classes is the teacher going very in-depth on all the tensions and confilcts between the sides piling up for quite some time before the assassination, and how those countries were all already at their throats itching to get into a fight. The teacher spent multiple lessons going into all of this, which made it rather plain obvious that if it wasn’t for the Archduke’s assassination, it would’ve been for something else.

That’s one thing from that teacher that stuck with me forever, the teacher’s explanation of how major the difference is between a cause and a reason, despite people using them synonymously often. Archduke’s assassination was the cause/trigger for the start of WW1, but it was not the reason for it. Causes/triggers are direct, quick, simple, interchangeable, standalone, and specific. Reasons are fundamental, complex, and often come in multiples, all interacting and feeding off each other in complex ways.

Same with the religion-caused conflicts/atrocities mentioned in this thread of comments. Religion was not the reason for those imo, it was just the cause/trigger, but not the reason. Hell, I am halfway thinking that it could even be that some religions in those ancient days were partially formed in response as to justify certain behaviors, rather than religions causing/triggering those behaviors, but that’s just a baseless speculation on my part that I myself have zero certainty in.

Off-tangent sidenote: without trying to take a dig at any specific religion, as I have no issues with religions themselves or their followers at all in present times, it does seem rather convenient that one of the most mainstream religions these days was found on the premise of a married woman giving a “virgin birth” to a child that wasn’t her husband’s son. Sensibly, once couldn’t explain it any way other than getting pregnant by someone other than the husband or a miraculous divine intervention. And knowing the very real life-ending consequences those days for women for that and, on top of it, giving birth to that child, the choice would be rather obvious.

[MeImCounting]

Religions as an excuse- in the past it was to justify genocide and sexual repression, today its used to justify genocide and sexual repression.

Yet somehow people still claim religious moral guidelines are somehow useful or good.

Look some of the great thinkers were religious, and christian and muslim and hindu and jewish philosophy used to be the best approximation of what we now know as science and rationality. We are standing on the shoulders of folks like Aquinas, Al-Khwarizmi, Aryabhata, Maimonides and others but we now know more than they did in basically every way. Why their moral stances would still hold up is beyond me. Maybe because people are still attached to the power over others that these "ethical" norms give them.

[filoleg]

Anything can (and will) be used as an excuse or justification for things like genocide or sexual repression.

Like, I am not trying to defend religion because it holds some special place in my heart, because it doesn’t, i am entirely non-religious. But looking at how Soviet Union did all those terrible things and more, while explicitly cracking down on religion and essentially prohibiting most of it (with a bunch of gulaging and murders, just to speed up the process a bit), I don’t think religion on itself is the problem.

> people still claim religious moral guidelines are somehow useful or good.

I mean, if one cites religion as their source of inspiration and encouragement for doing good things and being kind to other people, who am I to interfere? Sure, we can muse on the fact that good morals and kindness shouldn’t come from a belief in some deity or holy books. Ultimately, as long as someone is doing good things, I don’t really care whether they draw their inspiration to so from a religion or some charitable person in real life or an episode of spongebob squarepants. Whatever is helping them cope with the reality of living in a way that makes lives of those around them better.