[sylware]

First elf/linux vulkan3D AAA games are from 2017-2019.

The problem with the desktop/laptop linux (I am excluding the deck), is msft monopoly on desktop/laptop default installation.

It is a circular dependency to break: windows gets the games because it is mass installed by default, and windows is mass installed by default because it gets the games.

Breaking that circular dependency means a saner alternative to windows to invoke the ultra-hardcore regulation which would be required. Problem, massive and mainstream elf/linux distros out there are no less-worse than windows, and are mostly hostile to binary distributions which are games (ABI stability is stellar better on windows than on elf/linux).

You need to dicipline glibc/gcc devs first (easy out-of-the-box backward ABI support in the toolchain and not that symbol per symbol version handling pain with the binutils gas .symver directive), and make more "common" software package statically link friendly or "app internal packaging friendly" (collisions of app internal shared lib symbols with system symbols).

That has been the case for 10+years and it is still so much accute with so much nothing pertinent being done, I start to think about conspiracies: I am questioning for who those glibc/gcc devs are actually rolling for...

[nicce]

We have quite a lot of disk space these days on computers, so we can just use functional/declarative package managers to use dependencies in any format we like, having multiple versions of the same dependencies simultaneously, if needed.

Steam/Epic/et all. could just host own package registry for games, and there is no conflict with major Linux distributions about binary distribution.

On that case developers can bundle their games as they want, and end-users just use the package manager.

If you look how Steam works under the hood in Linux, it also manages dependencies for each game separately instead of using system libraries in the most cases.

[sylware]

Unfortunately, this is not at all the case.

Collabora "pressure-vessel" (used by valve) is limited as it does not follow the ELF ABI for all ELF binaries, and does take of lot of shortcuts for provider software packages it must import (datafile locations, critical environment variables, etc), and if you don't have "ubuntu", you are done for: I have often arguments with one "pressure-vessel" devs because it is breaking my distro even though it is very vanilla and simple, but not "ubuntu" breaking many of their "shortcuts".

And games would like to run en elf/linux distros without "pressure-vessel" (as far as I know, is not open source), as a set of clean ELF binaries.

But there is light at the end of the tunnel: engines, like godot, unity, UE5 (I think) seems very carefull about ABI issues on elf/linux and the game devs don't need to worry about cherry picking backward symbol version, avoid symbol collision with system ones as it is done for them by engine devs.

But you have engines which expect too much from the user system, that beyond video game core libs/interface: like electron (google blink), which expects a specific version of GTK+ on the user system... so the end of the tunnel is still far away for them.

[nicce]

> if you don't have "ubuntu", you are done for

Steam provided libs seems to be from Ubuntu, but the host does not need to be? Or what did you mean.

I used to make OCI containers from games and run them in Docker/Podman, since there were a lot of GPU specific driver issues, so I could easily swap between different drivers. But I did not notice any issues when running games with Arch or other distros.

Edit: Pressure vessel seems to be open-source

https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steam-runtime-tools/-/t...

[sylware]

When I said "ubuntu", it a reference to huge and mainstream elf/linux distros.

So to work around ABI instability from the glibc/gcc, you were building a container for each game you wanted to play, this is obviously past the point of being reasonable.

Weird, I did already clone this repo. I could not find pressure vessel code, I guess I missed it??? (BTW, this is a gigantic project, bad omens).

[nicce]

> So to work around ABI instability from the glibc/gcc, you were building a container for each game you wanted to play, this is obviously past the point of being reasonable.

That was my initial reasoning about functional/declarative package managers. They can reach the same but without making full blown containers.

[sylware]

Do you realize how much convolution this is? Without even considering the core of the issue: glibc devs and gcc are making core sys libs backward ABI handling a massive pain in the toolchain, and a kind of "silent killer".

It is inappropriate to consider those containers compared to actually doing something about this backward ABI handling in the toolchain for inexperienced devs on elf/linux (those coming from windows). This is technically more reasonable, with a abysmal difference.

[pjmlp]

Except, not even the AAA game studios that target POSIX based platforms like Android, iDevices and Playstation bother with GNU/Linux, Android being the more extreme as all NDK APis that are game related exist in GNU/Linux.

Additionally thanks to Proton, Valve is doing nothing less than supporting Windows/XBox game studios to not bother at all, as Valve does the required work anyway.

[sylware]

And it seems proton is not open source and does contain copies of windows DLLs.

Shabby and extremely expensive mitigation to compensate for many, not all, game devs.

[ianlevesque]

What DLLs? Wine has DLLs but they're compiled from open source, unless you are downloading some installer with winetricks. What did Proton do?

[sylware]

If proton is open source, you would not need it, wine/vkd3d would be enough. I have a build of git wine/vkd3d, hardly anything works.

If wrong, why valve is not using directly wine/vkd3d and/or not backporting anything?

[Macha]

The SteamWorks SDK, an optional component if you want to use steam features like achievements, Steam friends in multiplayer, or DRM, is proprietary. But you can use Steamworks without Proton or Proton without Steamworks.

The rest of Proton is open source and is at its core a distribution of wine + dxvk.

You'll see DLLs with names like Windows DLLs, but they come from Wine, not Windows, and are reimplementations.

[sylware]

Probably not.

As you would not need proton but only wine/vkd3d. And I have a recent build of wine/vkd3d, hardly anything works.

Does it mean valve is not backporting in wine/vkd3d?

[Macha]

A lot of "works in proton but not wine" is to do with specific configuration of runtime dependencies or wine options. You can probably make all these things run in vanilla wine if you mess around with CLI opts and config files, but if you want the steam like "just works" experience you probably want a layer on top of wine. Lutris is a popular fully open tool for games that does this without needing Steam specifically.

[sylware]

So you mean that if I can extract the required fine tuning of wine/vkd3d from lutris I could run some games which would not run on a vanilla configured wine/vkd3k, just by the flick of some configuration I could run, cyberpunk 2077? apex legend? big games like that?