[oytis]

Seeing what happened on 7th of October one can understand why IDF is nervous about people getting close (500m is the official buffer zone as I understand) to the fence. Not implying that competition in number of knees shot is justified.

[dragonwriter]

> Seeing what happened on 7th of October one can understand why IDF is nervous about people getting close (500m is the official buffer zone as I understand) to the fence.

The Israel-declared buffer zone is 100m or total exclusion, and 300m where only farmers may enter and only by foot. In practice the murder risk area (during normal times, not during publicized invasions, where the murder risk area is more universal) is 1000-1500m.

This is, of course, inside Gaza; nothing prohibits Israel from backing its border installations off a safe distance from the border and having a murder zone in Israel instead, which would at least be superficially consistent with its pretense not to occupy or exert any control within Gaza between its periodic invasions.

[oytis]

> nothing prohibits Israel from backing its border installations off a safe distance from the border

I don't get how it can work. So they make the exclusion zone outside of the fence, not inside. Then they would need to make another fence around this exclusion zone. Then peaceful protesters destroy the old fence, and we are back to square 0.

[dragonwriter]

> Then peaceful protesters destroy the old fence, and we are back to square 0.

Shooting people who cross a border without permission, while also not optimal in the case of peaceful protestors, is quite different than shooting peaceful protestors on the foreign side of your border in a territory you assert is not occupied and which further claim you have disenaged from and are not exerting control over.

Israel limiting its arbitrary murder zone to Israel proper would, while still arguably acting immorally, be at least acting consistently with its claim to have disengaged from and ended its occupation of Gaza. Baby steps.

[oytis]

The common idea of how borders work relies on the fact that borders are mutually recognized, and authorities on both side of the border collaborate to keep the border secure. This way you can maintain the exclusion zone in no man's land.

Border between Gaza Strip and Israel on the other hand is not even officially delineated AFAIK, it just de facto exists where the barrier is. So if you make a new barrier 500 meters away, and let the old one be slowly destroyed - as Hamas is not interested in maintaining it - it doesn't change anything, except the de facto border is now 500 away from the old place.

[nico]

This is exactly why the whole thing is so suspicious

They have cameras everywhere, including automated guns, a 100m buffer zone, and they didn’t see what was going on?

They didn’t see the breach, the hundreds of Hamas fighters crossing over? And they didn’t react for hours? And Netanyahu says they will only answer about Israel’s intelligence failure “after the war”?

[ashirusnw]

The automated security provided a false sense of security but it turned out to be very vulnerable to a multi-pronged and carefully timed attack on a Jewish holiday. With careful planning, and a pretence of not being interested in attacking (and even providing Israel with intelligence on PIJ commanders for assassination in recent times, working with Israel who provided increased work permits for Gazans to work in Israel recently), Hamas pulled the wool over Israel's eyes

[nonviol]

Shooting nonviolent protestors and then (as many do) saying why don't they choose nonviolence is an impossible trap to get out of. They have no options.

[oytis]

My point is it's not non-violent, as the point of the "protest" was threatening the same violence as happened on 7th of October - and, as it was organized by Hamas, potentially distracting IDF in order to commit actual violence.