[theautist]

>So Israel’s military operation is contemporaneous with a threat, and does at least serve some degree of self-defense purpose

There really is no self-defense purpose in my mind to what Israel is doing. It's more self-avenging as others mentioned.

You can argue it's a preventative operation to prevent future attack by taking out Hamas, but the approach they're taking does not indicate that since it's completely counter-productive and Israel must know that. When you level entire neighborhoods, and kill thousands of women and children, and make hundreds of thousands of them homeless, do you really expect those people to start liking Israel now? If killing is the solution to this conflict, it would have been solved a long time ago.

If I lost a loved one at the hands of Israel in such malicious and careless manner, I'm never going to not consider Israel as nothing but an enemy.

[amluto]

> There really is no self-defense purpose in my mind to what Israel is doing. It's more self-avenging as others mentioned.

> You can argue it's a preventative operation to prevent future attack by taking out Hamas, but the approach they're taking does not indicate that since it's completely counter-productive and Israel must know that.

dang has asked us to engage in thoughtful, curious conversation, and absolutes like you’re using seem unhelpful to this end.

What is a “self-defense purpose?” I genuinely believe that Israel has such a purpose, and I think I argued it reasonably well. I didn’t say Israel’s actions were productive or wise, but the self-defense purpose exists.

If Israel’s military command thinks of Gazans as machines or beasts, then it could see itself as doing the right thing. I personally believe that, especially when there is some form of conflict, one needs to remember that people are human, with human feelings and motivations, and consider those feelings and motivations, and Israel might act differently if its military command did so.

And this leads to:

> If I lost a loved one at the hands of Israel in such malicious and careless manner, I'm never going to not consider Israel as nothing but an enemy.

I think this exact feeling is a large part of the problem on both sides. Both sides have killed loved ones on the other side in ways that seem intentional, callous and pointless. (Remember what started the current war, and what Israel is doing as part of this war!) So, if people on both sides share this type of permanent hatred, then they will have a hard time ever finding peace. (And neither Israel nor Gaza are monoliths. Their people, their governments, their deceased ancestors, etc are separate. The actions of some IDF members, the orders from command, the actions of the government, and the actions of the average people are all different. And similarly for Gaza.)

[cassepipe]

Thanks for challenging my take and for trying to keep the thread focused. Your response was the only one that did not derailed in some way or other.

Back to your response :

Is it the case that Hamas kept on going full on rockets after all the terrorists they sent were killed ? I am asking because they were already launching rockets before and Israel did not invade Gaza and instead relied on the Iron Dome and somewhat targeted strikes. I think it matters because it would make the difference between defense and vengeance.

Some people are asking what I think Israel should have done. It's a hard path but I think they should have remained in the role of blatant victim and appeal to the international community to pressure for the release of hostages. Now you can argue that the other side is crazy and justify a hard stance in the eyes of the world. The dead are already dead and engaging in pointless counterinsurgency wars will make you look bad while achieving nothing but maybe endangering the life of hostages. But hey maybe I am deluded who knows.

[seanmcdirmid]

Wasn't this Hamas's goal all along? They were losing their reason for existing, so they figured out a way reinvigorate hostilities? It looks like they succeeded.

> If I lost a loved one at the hands of Israel in such malicious and careless manner, I'm never going to not consider Israel as nothing but an enemy.

You could rewrite this as: If I lost a loved one at the hands of Hamas/Israel in such malicious and careless manner, I'm never going to not consider Hamas/Israel as nothing but an enemy.

And so this cycle looks like it will never end.

[ah27182]

The cycle ends once there is true justice.

That is: human rights for all (Israelis and Palestinians) and reparations made to those who have been forcibly displaced and killed ever since this conflict began.

[cultofmetatron]

agreed, and the idf enforcing equal justice in the west bank instead of allowing settler violence against palestinians to go unpunished and only stepping in when palestinians fight back.

right now, the IDF only perpetuates injustice against palestinians. So the only alternative for them is Hamas. for all the deserved hate Hamas gets, what alternative do palestinian have? the IDF being impartial and enacting justice equally instead of allowing settlers to attack palestinians with impunity would go a long way towards pulling the teerh out of hamas.

[js212]

So what happens to the Arab Israeli Jews who got forced out of their countries in the 60s and 70s. Do they also get reparations?

[harimau777]

Isn't that a lot of what Israel's right of return is supposed to accomplish?

Perhaps some sort of program for Palestinians could be put into place to give them a similar right of return?

[namlem]

That could never happen. Too many of them and too many who hate Jews and Israel among them. Would be too much of a security threat.

[ah27182]

Thats actually a very valid point. The mistreatment of Mizrahi's by the Israeli government is well-documented, they deserve justice as well: https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-mizrahi-jewish-refugee-pro...

[whatshisface]

That sounds reasonable to me.

[whatshisface]

It is deeply ironic how Israeli ultranationalists and Hamas are fighting on the same side of the war that would destroy both of them, the fight in people's minds for peace.

[seanmcdirmid]

That’s true. Stuck in the middle are lots of innocent Israeli and Palestinian civilians.

[prewett]

How do you expect Israel to defend itself against an enemy that lives next door and is indistinguishable from the citizenry? Doing nothing is not an option: Hamas' explicit, public goal is the annihilation of Israel, and they are right next door. An analogous situation would be if some member(s) of the family next door publicly wanted you dead, and randomly shot at you, your family, and your house. But you don't know which ones, or how many, and you're pretty sure that most of the family is more or less okay with you living there. What do you think the police are going to do? And in this case, there is no police. So what is Israel supposed to do? (The reality is, there is no good solution, in part because Hamas engineered it that way, although I don't see any good solution even if they haddn't.)

[jmprspret]

How do you expect Palestine to defend itself against an enemy that lives next door and is indistinguishable from the citizenry? Doing nothing is not an option: Israel's explicit, public goal is the annihilation of Palestine, and they are right next door.

The reality is, there is no good solution. Because Israel has engineered it that way, not Palestine, not Hamas.

[nlh]

I know the sibling commenter mentioned this, but it bears repeating just for emphasis:

> Israel's explicit, public goal is the annihilation of Palestine

This is categorically false.

[ignoramous]

> This is categorically false

If the people of the only democracy in the middle east didn't believe this, they'd not have elected Likud to power for 2 decades and counting.

  The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel)

  a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

  b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform...

[ah27182]

It really isnt. You would be blind to think otherwise.

“I am the only one who will prevent a Palestinian state in Gaza and [the West Bank] after the war” - Netanyahu

[nvm0n2]

> Israel's explicit, public goal is the annihilation of Palestine

No it is not. Israel got its own people out of the Gaza strip years ago and hasn't let them back in since. Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity because Hamas prefers to spend its resources on building tunnel networks and rockets instead of power stations and water treatment works. It is also militarily superior and has nuclear weapons. If they actually decided to "annihilate" Gaza it would be a smoking pile of glass tomorrow, as the military capability is there.

> an enemy that lives next door and is indistinguishable from the citizenry

The IDF wear uniforms and are easily identifiable.

> Doing nothing is not an option

They have lots of options, including making peace with Israel. Step 1 would be to replace the government committed to its destruction, with one that is willing to talk instead of launch rockets. But the Palestinians seem to support the existing strategy.

[covercash]

> They have lots of options, including making peace with Israel. Step 1 would be to replace the government committed to its destruction, with one that is willing to talk instead of launch rockets.

How’s that working out for the Palestinians in the West Bank?

[s1artibartfast]

Obviously better than the Palestinians in Gaza? Is that in question?

[evancox100]

I mean, the actual material living conditions in the West Bank might be better, but don’t the Gazans at least have some form of sovereignty over their land? My understanding is that there is no real independent West Bank Palestinian government that exercises security over the land and the people on it. At least not in favor of the Palestinians.

[Aerbil313]

> How do you expect Israel to defend itself against an enemy that lives next door?

I wonder why the "enemy" lives so close? How did they come there?

[mikrotikker]

> do you really expect those people to start liking Israel now?

That boat already sailed long ago when the populace is brainwashed into hatred of Israel and Jews from school age. You can find footage of interviews with Gazan children talking about how they hope to murder Jews when they grow up because it will make their family proud.

There is no bloodless solution to this problem. And why should the otherwise peaceful Jews sit and wait for their blood to be spilled by an ever growing population of genocidal anti Semites?

They have offered peace to the Gazans 4 times now? Each time receiving saliva in their face for their efforts. The Gazans don't even want a two state solution, only the extermination of all Jews.

[hluska]

What other options does Israel have?

[nonviol]

Two states along the 1967 borders. If Israel and the US agreed to this, the international community would overwhelmingly support it. This would be more than enough to guarantee Israel's security.

[hluska]

As one of many examples in the last several decades, the Oslo accords were moving in that direction. Hamas stepped up the violence to such an extent that the death by terrorism rate in Israel increased almost 600% and Itzhak Rabin was assassinated. The public isn’t sure what happened to Yassar Arafat but it didn’t end well for him either. Rabin’s language was changing quickly and given another few years, entity would have likely changed to state.

We’re looking for ideas that end in less violence and where the leaders involved aren’t assassinated.

[yterdy]

>Itzhak Rabin was assassinated

By who? Your phrasing suggests it was a part of Hamas' terrorism campaign.

Central to the conflict is the Israeli refusal to accept responsibility for the current state of affairs, or to recognize any conception of proportionality. "We f*cked up, and we have not treated Palestinian life as equal to Israeli life," would go a long way towards reconciliation, but Israel will never admit wrongdoing even in the face of actually having committed wrongdoing.

[nec4b]

Unfortunately the Palestinians don't agree with that solution.

[Aerbil313]

Pretty understandable, since all of Israel is stolen land, while Jews, Christians and Muslims were living in the are peacefully before that in the Islamic era. HN doesn't seem to be aware of that the Nakba happened. Here's a demonstration of the "settlement" process from Guardian: https://youtu.be/ksnLom8OD9E?si=aYvcLqcLQK960fbx

[wyiske]

You have a very simplistic view of the history. Many Arabs actually aren’t native to the land either, they moved there for work that the new Jewish immigrants provided. In fact there was significant mutual cooperation and benefit. Land wasn’t stolen either, but bought after the Ottomans empire fell and it became legal for Jews to buy Muslim land (the ottomans had some nasty rules). Regarding the 700k Palestinians leaving in 1948, there was no historical order to evict anyone from outside the future Israeli borders, fact is they fled either from fear or through encouragement to leave by the 5 arab countries which declared war on Israel. Many millions of people have fled war, vastly more numerous than this, but yet that is the most infamous.

[Aerbil313]

If you were seen the video I think you’d very easily understand what “stolen” means.

[nec4b]

>> Pretty understandable, since all of Israel is stolen land, while Jews, Christians and Muslims were living in the are peacefully before that in the Islamic era.

When arabs conquered on colonized those lands they were anything but peaceful. For that islamic era to occure, hundreds of thousands had to die.

[wahnfrieden]

The Hamas charter literally agrees with it explicitly.

[nec4b]

No that it matters what a terrorist organization has in its charter, but since you think it's relevant, you should at least be honest about it. They are not giving up on their goal to rule the whole whole of Israel/Palestine, they are only willing to temporarily accept the 1968 borders.