[prmph]

> For example, Gaza had been described as an open air prison for almost 2 decades because its borders, imports, sea usage, had all been controlled by Israel.

Those restrictions are in place for a reason, which Hamas has confirmed on October 7th. And, what suffering does this cause exactly? Gaza had an HDI larger than that of many countries not at war, and had areas described as "wealthy".

Any close reading of this conflicts shows that it is an ideological conflict. Hamas and their supporters in Gaza actually prefer that Gaza becomes a hellhole, to rally allies to their side. Do you really think they want a peaceful and prosperous Gaza? No, they want to blow up the conflict, to energize it, to force a reckoning, with the ultimate goal of reclaiming land from the river to the sea, per their own charter.

Under such circumstances, what should Israel do? Pack up their bags and leave?

[__blockcipher__]

I don't really feel like clearing up all the half-truths or outright lies here, but I wanted to just call out one:

> with the ultimate goal of reclaiming land from the river to the sea, per their own charter.

The "from the river to the sea" is the language in the Likud charter, the party ruling Israel and dropping thousands of 2-ton bombs on Gaza right now. The popular chant "from the river to the sea palestine will be free" is a direct response to that. I'm unaware of Hamas' charter using the "from the river to the sea" language, although I'm open for correction here because I have not read the entire charter.

[prmph]

Are you claiming ignorance of the fact that the Hamas charter originally called for the liquidation of Israel? This is common knowledge. Granted, they have revised it recently to tone down the genocidal language, but I don't think anybody should be deceived about what their intentions are.

As the history of the slogan "from the river to the sea", please read on it at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea, it has little to do with Likud.

[avtar]

> it has little to do with Likud.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform...

"The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."

[devenvdev]

An easy check gives that Likud was formed in 70s while the phrase was popularized in 60s by pro-Palestinian movements.

Not that it makes this "who's invented the phrase" argument less of a strawman.

[vacuity]

Hamas is certainly a bad actor. I'm of the opinion that while Israel is somewhat better, it still did some bad things and is doing bad things that should be addressed. I wouldn't describe the Israeli government as a "defender" and leave it at that.

[mikojan]

> Under such circumstances, what should Israel do? Pack up their bags and leave?

That is exactly what they should do: End the occupation.

[devenvdev]

How? There are generations born in Israel, people who have nothing to do with occupation, they were born into this situation same like Palestinians. Why would they leave?

My father is Belorussian jew, mother Dagestanian Ukrainian, I was born in Russia. I'm Israely. Where exactly do you want me to pack up my bags and leave? Because I WILL fight you if you'll try to deport me to Russia...

I consider calls "to end the occupation" a sign of lack of understanding of the other side, we have nowhere to go.

[mikojan]

Israel controls Gaza's borders. Israel controls the sea. Israel controls Gaza's airspace. Israel controls the products entering and exiting Gaza. Israel controls even more areas than this. The occupation is ongoing. And it needs to end.

I do not care if you continue your live in Russia or Israel...

[devenvdev]

You haven't answered "How?".

[wahnfrieden]

By not leaving, but ending the subjugation as occupiers

[wahnfrieden]

they would stay there as they please as long as they aren't subjugating palestine as occupiers.

[devenvdev]

Uhm, have you asked "them"?

I yet to see "let's end the occupation" call that resulted in a less naive conversation.

What you propose is not a plan or a decent answer to "how to end occupation".

[wahnfrieden]

when apartheid south africa ended, the people remained. populations were not mass deported as you're suggesting must happen to end occupation - simply ahistorical. why is that more farfetched to you than mass deportations (to, as you say, where?)

btw, i used "they" to refer to the same "they" that you wrote. don't insinuate anything with scare quotes.

[devenvdev]

> what should Israel do? Pack up their bags and leave? > That is exactly what they should do: End the occupation.

If you'll ask Palestinians ending occupation means exactly that, Jews leaving, thus the famous slogan, Hamas charter, etc.

I think you are being deliberately obtuse at this point, so this conversation is over on my part.

[prmph]

By "Pack up their bags and leave" I meant, do Israelis have to vacate their country altogether as a condition of peace?

I understand Israel left Gaza in 2005, so I'm not sure what occupation is being referred to here. If you mean the blockade, don't you think Hamas laying down arms and renouncing violence would be a good first step towards convincing the Israelis to lift the blockade?

[mikojan]

> I understand Israel left Gaza in 2005, so I'm not sure what occupation is being referred to here.

Israel controls Gaza's borders. Israel controls the sea. Israel controls Gaza's airspace. Israel controls the products entering and exiting Gaza. Israel controls even more areas than this. The occupation is ongoing.

> [Don't] you think Hamas laying down arms and renouncing violence would be a good first step towards convincing the Israelis to lift the blockade?

People living under occupation have a right to armed resistance under international law. Israel has no right to continue its occupation.