[maximilianroos]

Getting laid off in December is tough. But it's better than getting laid off in January after coming back to work from holidays, with plans for the year ahead. At least this way, folks can recuperate with their family, and then hit the job market in January.

Or do others disagree?

[Macha]

It's easy to view it this way when you're a highly paid software worker, but the average worker in a plastic toy or board game factory is unlikely to have much runway so pretty much needs to start searching immediately with news like that.

Factory workers also are not going to be getting the kind of severance packages software devs get.

[ryandrake]

> Factory workers also are not going to be getting the kind of severance packages software devs get.

We get severance packages?

[azinman2]

Most companies do with mass layoffs, yes.

[ska]

Depending on the jurisdiction, severance packages may be required for mass layoffs.

[Consultant32452]

The WARN act (US federal law) requires that any company with over 100 employees gives 60 days notice. If they don't provide 60 days notice, they are required to give 60 days pay.

Obviously, local laws will vary greatly.

[dragonwriter]

> The WARN act (US federal law) requires that any company with over 100 employees gives 60 days notice. If they don't provide 60 days notice, they are required to give 60 days pay.

Pay and compensation for the value of employee-provided benefits to which they would have been entitled had they been employed, if the layoff meets the size, etc., requirement for WARN Act coverage.

[ska]

> Obviously, local laws will vary greatly.

Yes this is one area where it is all over the map, and you have to check your employment jurisdiction.

[Macha]

(a) A fixed 60 days pay is less than the 2 months per year with the company that has been the case in the last few tech layoffs I've observed in companies I've worked at

(b) Even for the <1 year employed, 60 days of factory pay (or instruction manual writer pay, or box artist pay, etc.) is less than 2 months of tech worker pay.

[namdnay]

I doubt Hasbro employ any factory workers, they’ll all be working for suppliers in China

[Macha]

They actually did have a very considerable factory in my hometown, but I see that closed in the previous layoff wave earlier this year.

[wharvle]

You know how it’s like impossible to get anything done in companies from about Dec 1 through Jan 15th? Because everyone’s taking time off, winding things down before taking time off, or ramping back up after coming back?

Now consider what that does to a job search.

[ghaff]

Yeah, leaving aside any "ruining the holidays" angle, it basically means you're adding an additional month before there's a point in doing much about even starting to look for a job.

[deadbabe]

You’re not really helping the argument for not firing people in the middle of December. During this end of the year period, a lot of companies are basically paying people for doing little to nothing at all. I’ve closed maybe two tickets.

edit: nooo don’t downvote me I wasn’t saying to fire them

[kasey_junk]

You are missing the point of the parents post. It’s more nefarious to fire people at the holidays because it’s harder for them to get a new job as the people at the new place are only closing 2 tickets.

[okeuro49]

If you are not the type of person who can switch off worries, it will cast a shadow over what is supposed to be a happy time.

I think Charles Dickens wrote a Christmas themed book on the topic of a heartless businessman, who acted much the same to his employees.

[gpderetta]

"Magic Universe Beyond: A Christmas Carol" confirmed.

[irrational]

I disagree. I was laid off at holiday time decades ago. That year we had nothing for the kids for Christmas and the holidays were incredibly stressful. I can’t think of a worse time for layoffs.

[peer2pay]

Hard disagree. I’d imagine the average worker affected here doesn’t get to 'recuperate with their family' but rather have to look for a job over the holidays while trying to keep up a facade for kids & family.

And it’s not like finding a job while everyone else is off is easy either.

[throwing_away]

Strong disagree. For anyone who makes enough to be getting severance, it's better to have it in the new tax year.

[hamandcheese]

Ignorant question - is severance typically paid lump sum?

[ska]

Sometimes. So Dec is the worst case, especially if you have a longish period. You end up paying top rates on this year, then suddenly have no income come January.

Of course details vary country to country.

One fairly common thing is you can opt to take it as an lump sum now, or take it as a monthly salary - but with the proviso that if you take a new job you stop getting it. This is often the way benefit extensions work also. Sometimes the monthly option is larger.

So financially you are often better off with the lump sum, but it can be a tax hit.

[StormChaser_5]

Yes. Or at least here in Ireland

[dmurray]

If this was in Ireland, the workers wouldn't be laid off as of today - they'd at least have the option of a "consultation period". While that might be just a formality in terms of retaining their jobs, it would give anyone who wanted the option to get their severance payment in January instead.

[nradov]

It's easier to get hired quickly in January. A lot of publicly traded companies that have their fiscal years aligned to calendar years institute hiring freezes in Q4 in order to make their annual financial statements look better. Plus a lot of the key internal recruiters and hiring managers take PTO in December so interviews and decisions get delayed. Activity tends to pick up again in January.

[mhink]

The way I see it, if you're gonna have to tighten your belt during the holidays, it's probably best to know about it sooner rather than later. By early December, people have likely already made plans for the holidays, which can easily include things that can't easily be changed (like expensive travel to go see family). Of course, that argument still applies if you're having layoffs in mid-January (right after people have done their holiday spending).

But I think it makes more sense if you look at it like this: some people feel like the holidays are already stressful enough, others feel like it's a time to be able to relax and refocus away from work. Having layoffs right at this point in time makes things even more stressful for the first group, and ruins the holiday for the second group. And in both cases, if you have layoffs in January, those affected can hit the ground running immediately rather than waiting for the New Year.

[xnx]

Disagree. It's better to get laid off after any paid holidays.

[toomuchtodo]

Higher level, this is why I support employees unionizing. Yes, it is not lolipops and rainbows. Yes, there is a change in dynamic. But if we're going to accept corporations are okay to act as psychopaths, then labor should organize to be the lawnmower the same way tech folks joke about Oracle. The knife should cut both ways.

Otherwise, management and shareholders are just going to keep operating in this manner and treating workers poorly and nothing will change.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

> "As you know people, as you learn about things, you realize that these generalizations we have are, virtually to a generalization, false. Well, except for this one, as it turns out. What you think of Oracle, is even truer than you think it is. There has been no entity in human history with less complexity or nuance to it than Oracle. And I gotta say, as someone who has seen that complexity for my entire life, it's very hard to get used to that idea. It's like, 'surely this is more complicated!' but it's like: Wow, this is really simple! This company is very straightforward, in its defense. This company is about one man, his alter-ego, and what he wants to inflict upon humanity -- that's it! ...Ship mediocrity, inflict misery, lie our asses off, screw our customers, and make a whole shitload of money. Yeah... you talk to Oracle, it's like, 'no, we don't fucking make dreams happen -- we make money!' ...You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don't fall into that trap about Oracle."

Labor should try being the lawnmower instead of the lawn; "the beatings will continue until morale improves."

[iisan7]

A union wouldn't push to move layoffs to January, they would push to prevent layoffs at all. Which is maybe what you're advocating, but not what the parent post was saying.

[toomuchtodo]

If you give me two shitty options, I will propose an option not presented. Perhaps layoffs are inevitable (unsustainable business, for example, no way you can outrun negative cashflow sometimes), in which case very reasonable packages could be provided. There is no obligation today for that action. You overleveraged the business? You're getting fired, shares are going to zero, but the people who work for you aren't going to sitting at home crying through the holidays waiting for the job market to spin up in January. We might even claw some comp back if at all possible. Leaders eat last.

Note that GM cried in public they could not afford the UAW's demands, and once they agreed to said demands, they still did a $10B share buyback. Boo hoo. I'm simply tired of psychopaths in positions of power in the labor market.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/29/business/gm-lavishes-sharehol...

[mulmen]

I agree with you generally but I’m not sure the share buyback disproves the claim about labor affordability specifically. In fact I’m having a hard time imagining how it does.

[mvdtnz]

I don't think it's necessary to play a game of "who has it worse" now. Just sympathise with the folks under discussion.

[willsmith72]

Depends on the severance. It's rough because you're starting the application process now, and not many companies are going to start the hiring process with someone a few days before a Christmas break.

That means you can essentially only start the process in early January, so you're already a few weeks/a month into your severance

[JohnFen]

Getting laid off shortly after Christmas is worse than getting laid off before Christmas for many people, yes. If you know you're being laid off before Christmas, you can pare back on Christmas spending. If you're laid off after it, then you can't.

[myth_drannon]

Instead of enjoying the holidays, you will be mentally devastated and worrying about securing an interview. The worst time to be laid off is in December(stuck home in winter) and the best time is May(enjoy the summer).

[bdcravens]

I don't have kids, but I can imagine watching them open their presents on Christmas morning with doubt about what the next year of birthdays and Christmas will be like must be gut-wrenching.

[dragonwriter]

As a high-paid tech worker with the savings that are likely when you have that kind of income, maybe.

Most of the people impacted by this aren't high-paid tech workers.