[stoorafa]

That’s an interesting parallel, Gazan’s response is also borne of a history of oppression. Living with food insecurity, being an intergenerational refugee unable to return to home a few miles away, watching family members harmed, etc seems to motivate a lot of Palestinian behavior.

[ifdefdebug]

"being an intergenerational refugee" is one of the most absurd problems that exist in this conflict. Nobody should be a refugee just because their grandparents were. They should be plain citizens of whatever region they were born in.

If we extrapolate this stance to other past conflicts, we'd have today tens of millions of German "intergenerational" refugees sitting in Germany and waiting for their return to their home a few miles away, across the Oder river.

[Georgelemental]

Yes, that's why the Palestinians need a proper state of their own, so the absurdity can end.

[lolinder]

The idea that every nation needs a state (and every state exists to serve one nation) is part of the absurdity! It's what got us into this mess in the first place—the Jews needed a state of their own because the rest of us couldn't stand to let them make their home near us.

The problem of intergenerational refugees will not be solved by carving out a new state and shipping everyone back there.

[natch]

Their ancestors lost their homes when they needlessly started, and then lost, a war against people who owned land outright and others who moved onto the land only after the UN divided it and gave a vast proportion of it to Jordan, and part to Israel… ancestors who also abandoned their land after the war defeat on the advice of their warlike leaders. The ones who stayed behind became Israeli (Arab muslims, Christians, etc.) and kept their land as long as they held valid documented title to it, and many of those who made that move (or whose parents did) say they would prefer to live under Israeli rule versus PA rule. The Youtuber TravelinIsrael has some good videos on history about this.

Obviously there are also modern alleged losses of land and homes but each case has its own details. In some, Israelis (often settlers) are clearly in the wrong, but in others, it is less clear and more disputed than common rhetoric about “oppression” and “occupation” would imply.

[Georgelemental]

> moved onto the land only after the UN divided it

Why should people who have lived in an area for generations heed the dictates of nations thousands of miles away?

> ancestors who also abandoned their land after the war defeat on the advice of their warlike leaders.

This is a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened. A full accounting won't fit in an HN comment, but it's beyond question that many Palestinians were expelled at gunpoint from homes they had been living in for generations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_fro...

Personally, I would recommend the series "Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem" [0]. The guy behind it is a former US DoD contractor who worked for many years with the IDF, friends with Israeli soldiers, etc, but who is also married to a woman with Palestinian relatives. It's extremely well-researched, and explains the motivations of all the players without exculpating any side.

[0]: https://martyrmade.com/fear-loathing-in-the-new-jerusalem/

[ignoramous]

> beyond question that many Palestinians were expelled at gunpoint from homes

You'd surprised how many out right reject this ever happened, including some prominent "Zionists" in tech. There's some alternate reality that some of us were simply not part of, but yet find ourselves with them in this shared reality.

[ngcazz]

It's a matter of public record and well articulated by Ilan Pappé at the very least, that the Zionists were intent on capturing Palestine for themselves and removing everyone they could by any means necessary. If they could buy out the properties they would, but as they faced mounting resistance they resorted to violence. Ben-Gurion and his ilk were criminals even if lionized

[natch]

This debunks some of the false narrative:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8bkqqvoGpc

You may criticize him for taking a side.

On the other hand, I prefer that to someone who just pretends to be even handed.

For the record, I listen to the viewpoints of plenty of people on the other side, as well. But I'm afraid I find their narrative doesn't hang together.

[Georgelemental]

I watched the video, thanks.

I would recommend again the series I linked in my previous comment. The series creator says at one point, that had he been born a Jew, he would have been a hardcore Zionist; conversely, had he been born a Palestinian, he would have been a hardcore supporter of that side. One of the things the series does so well is, instead of presenting the history as a debate between two camps that needs to have a winner and loser, it tells the story. For all the major players in the story, it tells you not only what they did, but why they did it, and how they came to believe what they believe. And then it asks you what you would have done in their situation. After you've stared that question in the face, it's impossible to really hate either side IMO.

It's a long series, many hours of listening, but absolutely worth every second. Hooked me from the first few minutes. You won't regret it!

I'll leave you with a speech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Dayan%27s_eulogy_for_Ro%...

[natch]

You are correct, in addition to those who decided to abandon their land, there are others who were expelled because their side started a war they lost, in which Israel captured vast amounts of territory, and expelled people on the losing side from that territory in some cases. As you yourself said, a full accounting won't fit; there's a lot more that can be said about history here.

The podcast person married into a Palestinian family thinks that Israel's founding consisted of Jews coming from Europe. Certainly many Jews came from Europe but many already lived in their homeland of Israel decades or more before modern Israel was founded, and many tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands came from nearby Arab countries, where true actual genocide against them was underway and was carried through (you can count the results today in the demographics of nearby countries as compared to prior to the many pograms). Golda Meir herself was Palestinian.

There are flaws on both sides. But I'll take the side who doesn't r**e with family members cheering them on. Sickening. Of course, saying that they haven't had an easy time would be a huge understatement. Some of it is self inflicted, starting wars and conflicts, but they also have been lied to about the most fundamental things, and about history. And so I would take everything in that podcast with a grain of salt, especially given that it only took reading the summary of Episode 1 to find wild distortions.

[Georgelemental]

> many already lived in their homeland of Israel decades or more before modern Israel was founded

He actually devotes a lot of time in the podcast to this. Don't judge by a one-paragraph blurb.

[metta2uall]

"Their ancestors lost their homes when they needlessly started, and then lost, a war" - the Palestinian villagers did not start any wars - the war was started by the rulers of neighboring states...