[hamandcheese]

> Thats the entire point of the Apple ecosystem. They want to control the entire user experience end to end

I don't doubt that.

> and it is why many people like Apple products so much.

No. People like the quality and the refinement and polish. In most cases those things to not require (as much of) a closed ecosystem. Beeper is proof of that.

[bigstrat2003]

I would say people like the marketing. The average consumer gives no shits about product quality (see: the race to the bottom in basically every industry). But Apple has somehow convinced people that they are cool, so people buy their products.

[hyperbovine]

> The average consumer gives no shits about product quality

It's exactly this sort of contemptuous attitude that "techies" have towards "average users" that enabled Apple to become the most valuable company in history.

[mschuster91]

> But Apple has somehow convinced people that they are cool, so people buy their products.

That "somehow" is pretty easy to explain. Apple creates innovative products - the iPod, iPhone and AirPods were all the first-of-their-kind products - and especially, it creates long lasting products, both in terms of build quality and support.

Good luck getting security updates (including drivers) for your 5 year old typical Windows laptop (or getting a modern OS running on it, see the issue with TPM requirements). Apple, on average, supports a device for ~6 years, and up to 9 years (!) for mobile devices [2].

Meanwhile, you're lucky if your Windows or Android device even lasts that long physically.

On top of that, the battery lifetimes for Apple devices are insane compared to the competition - a feat that neither Windows nor Android can achieve as they lack the complete control over the entire stack, from CPU design over firmware over hardware to the OS and user-space libraries, that Apple has.

[1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/some-macs-are-gettin...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_iPhone_models

[sumuyuda]

Not for sure where the claim of Windows machines lasting less than Apple products comes from. Before Windows 11, you could easily be running Windows 10 on a 10-15 year old computer.

[mschuster91]

> Not for sure where the claim of Windows machines lasting less than Apple products comes from.

I'm talking about the entire stack including drivers. Microsoft is left at the mercy of vendors here.

Additionally, I have yet to see a Windows laptop that doesn't develop cracks, broken hinges and whatnot after 2-3 years of use.

[rpmisms]

Never seen a thinkpad, I see. I still use an x61t that's in perfect condition.

[Nextgrid]

Apple is often less shitty than the alternative. Yes, the standards have dropped, but the competition has too, so the status quo stands. It's not just marketing.

[ceejayoz]

The quality and refinement comes from the control. They don’t ever have to support a device they didn’t make themselves.

[skeaker]

I have seen this argument so many times and it has never made sense to me. There is so much quality software that is free and open and interoperable. It is more than possible to be both open in nature and of high quality, to me that is indisputable. Apple obviously has a financial incentive to be locked down, they're not locked down out of any sort of necessity or as a concession for the sake of quality.

In the case of Beeper Mini, the proof is in the pudding. You have evidence right in front of your face that an Android client for iMessage is possible, because one now exists. Does your iPhone suddenly feel lower quality to you?

[ceejayoz]

> You have evidence right in front of your face that an Android client for iMessage is possible, because one now exists.

Sure, but I'm not the one who has to handle customer service for it.

Apple can have a test suite that encompasses every possible supported device (and OS combination). That's much tougher if they want to support Android.

> Does your iPhone suddenly feel lower quality to you?

No, but that's missing the point. If Beeper catches on, and all my Android friends install it, and some of my messages start getting lost, delayed, what have you, that's when I'd start to feel it.

[freedomben]

> If Beeper catches on, and all my Android friends install it, and some of my messages start getting lost, delayed, what have you, that's when I'd start to feel it.

You realize that's been Apple's fault right, intentionally breaking Beeper?

[ceejayoz]

> You realize that's been Apple's fault right, intentionally breaking Beeper?

Sure, it's impossible that Beeper's app or services could ever just malfunction on their own. The first bug-free app!

[freedomben]

Oops, meant this to be a reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38603599

[Nextgrid]

> some of my messages start getting lost, delayed, what have you, that's when I'd start to feel it.

Then you can blame their phone... just like you would now if your SMS messages to them were getting lost.

[ceejayoz]

If the iMessages fail, and give me the "try as SMS instead", I'm likely to blame iMessage.

[skeaker]

Apple doesn't need to provide support for Android if they simply open their protocol and let whoever develops the Android client take care of that, as evidenced by Beeper Mini.

> If Beeper catches on, and all my Android friends install it, and some of my messages start getting lost, delayed, what have you, that's when I'd start to feel it.

In that case, you might be shocked to learn that before Beeper Mini you simply couldn't send iMessages to Android devices at all. Imagine that, ALL of your iMessages to them getting dropped and having to go through SMS instead...

[ceejayoz]

> Apple doesn't need to provide support for Android if they simply open their protocol and let whoever develops the Android client take care of that, as evidenced by Beeper Mini.

Now they have to support an open standard/protocol, though. That's not negligible effort.

> In that case, you might be shocked to learn that before Beeper Mini you simply couldn't send iMessages to Android devices at all. Imagine that, ALL of your iMessages to them getting dropped and having to go through SMS instead...

But that's seamless; I've never had to wait or make that choice.

When there's some kind of iMessage failure, though, they sit around and don't send, until I get a delivery failure and "send as SMS" as the fallback. This is rare, but extremely annoying. Adding third-party services into the mix doesn't seem like it's going to reduce these instances.

[skeaker]

> Now they have to support an open standard/protocol, though. That's not negligible effort.

Evidently not, given the existence of Beeper Mini without intervention on their part. In fact, they're actively spending effort on breaking a working implementation that took them no effort. And either way, they have trillions of dollars and some of the brightest people in tech under their belt. If your argument is that they're not capable of making that protocol work, you're wrong.

>But that's seamless; I've never had to wait or make that choice.

It's seamlessly giving you less functionality, sure. This is not a matter of opinion: Being able to send iMessages to Android users is a feature that iPhones currently do not have at all. Apple is choosing to not give you that functionality when they could be. With something like Beeper Mini, you as an iPhone user gain more functionality by being able to send iMessages to some Android users. Even if it fails sometimes, it is still functionality that simply did not exist at all before. This is only beneficial to you as an iPhone user because you now have functionality that you did not before. I don't know if that can be phrased any more directly.

[hamandcheese]

Counterpoint: AirPods can connect to any Bluetooth compatible device, yet the experience with an iPhone is still magical.

[hraedon]

The relevant example here is that Apple supports the lowest common denominator standard: SMS. iMessage is what makes the experience "magical" on iPhones.

The total failure of any open messaging standard to capture the market seems to imply to me that control is actually pretty important to the experience of using the service!

[hamandcheese]

It merely implies that being closed is more profitable, not that it is critical to the experience.

[ceejayoz]

That doesn't seem like a comparable scenario; Apple implements the Bluetooth standard (along with a bunch of others), which is defined by industry groups.

In this case, it's not a standard.

[covercash]

I actually like the walled garden, things “just work” in here…

I also have devices outside of the the walled garden but they take a bit more effort as far as initial set up and upkeep, things I’m willing to do but average Joe just wanting his tech to do what he tells it to do might not have the patience for.