[thegrimmest]

I would prefer a government that maintained a liberal ecosystem - one where violence is delegitimized and disputes are resolved via due process. I would however prefer that the government then did not try to meddle in the outcomes that ecosystem produces.

I don't see a moral justification in the use of force to shackle the capable and the fortunate, forcing them to toil in maintenance of the incapable and the unfortunate. The ideal I'm describing was more or less the case in the US before United States v. Butler (1936), which changed the interpretation of the general welfare clause of the constitution.

[__loam]

Man, I hate libertarians.

What you get with this kind of system is powerful people meddling with the government to reinforce their power using anti-democratic means. A plutocracy. You also have to contend with the toxic economics of monopoly.

I bet you want unregulated utilities too because you a) don't understand macroeconomics and b) subscribe to anti-social and psychopathic economic theories.

[thegrimmest]

We already have a mechanism to prevent such meddling - a constitution. The authority of the government should be confined to the small box required to maintain liberal order. Limiting power is the best way to minimize corruption. The power of the government being allowed to grow without limit is what led to that power becoming susceptible to capture.

This was successful for centuries, but the constitutional protections of this order eventually eroded. Were they stronger and more explicit (say there was no general welfare clause), we could well be living in such a liberal order today.

[__loam]

I guess we're just ignoring the Robber Barons and the monumental effort to reign in their power through trust busting. It would be nice to live in your fantasy world but we don't. Plutocratic power must be checked by government. The alternative is monopoly and collapse. We have reams of evidence discrediting your view.

[gottorf]

> powerful people meddling with the government to reinforce their power using anti-democratic means

As the other commenter alluded to, the solution to this is to limit the power of the government so that even if they meddle and gain influence, the harm they can do is limited because the government itself isn't allowed to do whatever it is the plutocrats want to do.