[ajross]

> a sympathy strike involves a union deciding to take industrial action against an organisation to support another unions industrial action

Interestingly that's not quite what's happening either. The workers in question are not in a union. IF Metall is the union being supported, and merely wants to represent them (more correctly, they don't want a non-union shop operating in their market).

Everyone is just nuts here. Tesla needs to just cut a deal here, but at the same time this kind of escalation, with all this economic disruption, all for the "benefit" of 160 (or whatever) unrepresented workers who aren't even part of the story and don't seem to be asking for union representation or higher wages or anything is just batshit.

[cardy31]

My understanding is that the various unions view Tesla’s actions as a threat to how labour works in Sweden. There apparently isn’t even a minimum wage in the country as everything is governed by these collective agreements. So if they let Tesla come in and not play by the rules it could open the floodgates for other large corporations to come in and do the same, slowly eroding the system.

[fallingknife]

Yeah I think that's correct. The unions here are not acting as representatives of Tesla workers to negotiate with Tesla, but rather as cartels trying to prevent two willing parties (Tesla and its employees) from doing business without cutting in the union.

I had no idea that unions could operate like this. I thought unions were tools to gain workers leverage against their employers, which I obviously support. I find this cartel action repulsive and I don't see how it could be done here in the US without violating anti trust.

[soco]

So you support workers gaining leverage with the help of unions, but when the workers actually try gaining leverage with the help of unions, you call them names. That's not exactly showing "support" is it?

[SwedishExpat]

> The unions here are not acting as representatives of Tesla workers to negotiate with Tesla, but rather as cartels trying to prevent two willing parties (Tesla and its employees) from doing business without cutting in the union.

Out of interest, how are the unions trying to cut in? And what exactly are they "cutting in"?

[oblio]

So if union do stuff, they should be targeted by anti trust but if companies do it, nothing should happen?

My God, so many people have been taught to have themselves. It's just sad at this point.

[andsoitis]

> So if they let Tesla come in and not play by the rules

Tesla complies with the country's laws, no?

[capableweb]

There are laws and there are norms. In Sweden, both are equally important and you'll get left out if you break either. It's sad in a lot of cases, as it removes some individuality, but it's how the country been operating for a long time.

Expecting to run a company against the norms in a culture that so heavily leans on norms is bound to create conflict, which is what we're seeing here.

[veqz]

Laws upheld by the state are the worst good way to maintain order.

A much better way is to have the parties play nice with each other, build trust, and negotiate as equals. This allows for much better and more detailed agreements, for quicker reactions if market conditions changes, and for more flexibility within each economic sector. The fact that the Nordic countries operate in such a way no doubt contributes to these countries both having great standards of living, and being among the best in the world to start and run businesses in.

Tesla doesn't play nice. They don't build trust, and they don't try to negotiate as equals.

True, it is not illegal. It doesn't need to be. We have other ways to keep hostile actors from misbehaving.

Strikes are one of those ways.

[SwedishExpat]

Sweden has a small government approach to labour, the idea is that Unions are more agile and closer to the market so they are given the power to negotiate. The legislation is basically "there are no laws, speak to the Unions and sign the agreement". So yes you're correct they aren't breaking any laws, but neither are the Unions for not working for companies without a collective bargaining agreement.

This system has worked well for a hundred years with Sweden ranking highly across most metrics for work satisfaction, happiness, etc... however every now and then an American company comes over and tries to challenge it. These companies get sympathy striked into the ground, sign a collective agreement, and live happily ever after.

[sjsdaiuasgdia]

The other companies and unions are also complying with the country's laws, and they're exercising their choice to not do business with a company that is choosing to operate in a way that contradicts the existing social structures.

[sakjur]

And so do the unions. The law takes a hands off approach to regulating the conditions of workers, but that goes both ways. If Tesla avoids signing a collective bargaining agreement, the law won’t help the unions force them to, but it also won’t protect Tesla from the unions.

[Ma8ee]

What apparently a lot of commenters don’t know is that in Sweden a lot of things that in other countries are regulated by laws are regulate by agreements between the unions and corresponding organisations for the employers. This an order that both parties prefer, instead of legislations that none of them might be happy with.

It has been like this in Sweden since 1938 (if I remember correctly), and it is unlikely that any American company will be allowed to come in and change that order. I think the last one that tried and failed was Amazon, and before that Toys R Us.

[cycomanic]

This is one of the fundamental things about Sweden which is really quite weird when you come from the outside. Much of Swedish society runs on "recommendations" (or norms as someone else put it), so technically you don't have to abide by them (i.e. under the thread of the government monopoly on violence, how we enforce laws), but everyone just does it anyway.

This was an interesting experience for me during COVID, where lots of other countries put lots of rules/laws in place, while Sweden just had "recommendations" (and lax ones at that). The way I understood it, it would have been even incredibly difficult/legally impossible for the government to impose some of the same restrictions as in other countries.

It's actually fascinating how well the Swedish society functions without these laws.

[xorcist]

They are.

Then again, so are the unions.

Tesla just chose the most expensive way possible to solve the matter. That's well within their rights, of course.

[SwedishExpat]

> The workers in question are not in a union

Some members of the Tesla servicing stations are members of a union but the numbers aren't public because an employer cannot ask who is in a union

> IF Metall is the union being supported and merely wants to represent them

Yes, IF Metall is the largest union for that type of work in Sweden. They do represent some employees.

> more correctly, they don't want a non-union shop operating in their market

Correct, no-one wants this because the entire labour system is built around collective agreements. Allowing companies to break these rules is bad.

> Tesla needs to just cut a deal here

Yep, or leave! Both works well, the only option that's not viable is to be allowed to break the Nordic/Swedish working model

> all for the "benefit" of 160 (or whatever) unrepresented workers

Some are represented

> who aren't even part of the story and don't seem to be asking for union representation or higher wages or anything

Again, Unions represent employees and all members of the company including non-union members can strike because it's illegal to ask or identify who is or isn't in a Union. Which is why this number of non-Union members is mostly made up rubbish by pro-Tesla sites, the number is unknown.

[pydry]

Aggressive American union busting tactics don't go down well in Europe. This isn't the first time this type of thing has happened.

Walmart famously crashed and burned in Germany, for example, because they treated the German unions like uppity communists.

[emptysongglass]

Exactly. This is about our entire model under threat. And it will be Tesla's Afghanistan. Membership in unions is the norm in Sweden. People want to be in unions. I want to be in my union. We feel good about them and employers (who respect our model) feel good about it too because it is cooperative.

For many reasons, the US has a model which is not cooperative but built on bitter enmity. This is repeated throughout the nation with e.g. cars vs bikes.

We do not have that here. This is Musk bringing all his prejudice to a bunch of countries he doesn't understand the norms and culture of.

[andsoitis]

>> don't go down well in Europe.

> Exactly. This is about our entire model under threat. And it will be Tesla's Afghanistan. Membership in unions is the norm in Sweden.

Unionization rates differ significantly across European countries. While the unionization rate in the Sweden is quite high at 65.2% (as of 2019), it is much lower in Germany at 16.3% and even lower in France at 8.9%.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1356735/labor-unions-mos...

[emptysongglass]

I was specifically speaking about the Nordic Model of which I am a member and a citizen. I could have been more clear but by "my" I meant as a citizen of a country participating in the Nordic Model. What the rest of Europe does is up to them. Unions are foundational to our (Scandinavia's) way of life. This fight ends with Tesla either agreeing to our model or losing our entire market.

[andsoitis]

To put into context, Tesla only employs 120 people in Sweden.

[pgeorgi]

There are enough other social norms that US companies can bloody their nose on in other European countries.

As for strikes in particular: France doesn't require a union vote to engage in a strike to do so with far-reaching protections (2 employees fighting for an employment-related change seem to suffice from my cursory reading), so the French can strike without needing to be unionized. And boy, do they strike...

[xorcist]

The French system is not at all like the Nordic system. It is much closer to the American system, only with stronger unions.

The Swedish almost never go on strikes, with very few exceptions.

[ajross]

> Aggressive American union busting tactics don't go down well in Europe.

But... Tesla never even got that far. They just hired some people who apparently wanted the jobs? No one got fired or threatened, no bribes are alleged. It really seems like IF Metall fired first, no?

[Hikikomori]

Tesla has refused to negotiate for over 5 years.

[ajross]

With who though? Not their workers. Can you cite coverage of the "union busting" activities you're talking about?

[Hikikomori]

The union? I didn't respond on the busting part, just that Tesla refused to negotiate for 5 years. But from what I read Tesla brought in workers from elsewhere, does that count as union busting?

[pydry]

https://archive.is/gXGSn

[ajross]

There is nothing remotely like "union busting" alleged in that article (which is quite good, and largely supports my belief that this is an unreasonable escalation by Swedish labor; so much so that I maybe question if you actually read it?).

[piva00]

Tesla brought that unto themselves when they brought in scabs. That's the most egregious act against labour in the Nordics, from that moment they destroyed any chance to be seen as coming into negotiations on a equal footing. You don't do that here, period.

> but at the same time this kind of escalation, with all this economic disruption

What is the economic disruption? There's no "economic disruption" because of Tesla in Sweden, it's negligible for the overall Swedish economy, stop that...

Tesla fucked around, now it's finding out.