[kabanda1]

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences.

About LBGTQ

This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power.

I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here have no idea what LGBTQ means and those who do don't give a damn. Those leading the making of laws and noise making are just populists after their bread. [These are facts, hoping they still matter]

If you feel so strong about attending the conference, no one is going to ask your sexual orientation at the airport. Tourists are coming in everyday. Qatar has just hosted the world cup, how many LGBTQ people were jailed? If you don't feel safe, just skip the conference or attend online.

You know very well that coders are among the most reserved people on earth, why punish them for their government rules?

I hate posturing. I thought this kind of behaviour is to be left to politicians and 'national security' advisers.

Will the world ever go back to reality?

[mrweasel]

Looking at the map of the "LGBT rights by country or territory"[0] it is also not clear to me where people would suggest that the conferences be held. Zanzibar seems like one of the few places that would work, along with Botswana, and a few others. Some of the other countries that might work have completely different safety issue, regardless of your sexual orientation.

I think realistically, someone has the well meant opinion that these conferences should only be held in places where everyone can feel completely safe, and then just completely ignores reality. The unfortunate result is an effectual ban on any meetings in places like Africa or the Middle East, which is equally unreasonable and excluding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_terr...

[nomdep]

I don't think is unreasonable at all. Anyone can do a conference wherever, the PSF just don't want to sponsor conferences in places under those conditions

[colpabar]

But this is exactly like sanctioning a country ruled by an oppressive regime because the regime is oppressive. You're just punishing the people who are already oppressed!

[nomdep]

There are two positions the PSF can take:

1. Python evangelism is about the tech and is not an endorsement of whoever organize conferences, even if is in nazi Germany.

2. Giving money to a conference IS an endorsement of whoever organize it, so it must comply with the morals of the PSF board and biggest backers.

In hindsight, (1) seems more fair, but because the PSF is about politics and not tech, is not surprising they will always choose (2).

[IAmLiterallyAB]

Based on that map, South Africa would seem to be the best choice

[doix]

South Africa is great except they have rolling blackouts(load shedding) and can be somewhat unsafe. Don't get me wrong, I was there for 3 months and didn't experience any problems, except one time when I was parking at an almost empty beach and my car didn't lock when I pushed the button on the remote. But I could definitely see a bunch of less savvy folks coming in with a bunch of apple goods, flashing them openly in the wrong place and something bad happening.

The rolling blackouts would also probably be pretty annoying though.

[bitcurious]

> FYI, Most people here have no idea what LGBTQ means and those who do don't give a damn. Those leading the making of laws and noise making are just populists after their bread.

How do you reconcile these two statements? Populists by definition appeal to public sentiment, to the detriment of principals or morality. If no one cares, why are they wasting their time?

It's like the old joke "no one goes there, it's too crowded."

[kabanda1]

Maybe a wrong word to use. But politicians claim to be representing the people's voice in ceating those laws is not entirely correct.

In most African countries, people are still uncomfortable with LGBTQ, and the general show of love in public but not hostile to the extent of enacted laws

Remember most LGBTQ activism is sponsored by the west, so politicians use that to heat up the population about family, bill gates, blah, blah, that's where I used the word populism.

[Ralfp]

> If you don't feel safe, just skip the conference or attend online.

Well, PSF is not feeling safe about the conference and are skipping it.

[ExoticPearTree]

If that was the case, they could have said no 5 months ago and the organizers would have had time to find alternate funding or do the conference online. Stonewalling people for a few months just because you can is a dick move.

[kabanda1]

Very well. Just give people a reason and they move on. We wouldn't be here today

[cjfd]

"sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power." 'Sanctioning to death' is perhaps not reasonable but, still, there should be standards for dealing with countries. Let us consider a different example. Without standards you end up with buying cheap goods made by children who work 12 hours a day on Saturday combined with driving your own child to violin lessons on Sunday. Not to mention that the children who work 12 hours a day are competing with properly paid adults in other countries.

To get back to LGBTQ rights, there also should be some standards. The standards should perhaps not be as high as western nations would like but they should exclude the worst places in the world. The story sounds like the PSF had at the time not yet decided what standards should be in place for subsidizing conferences. They should correct this omission because keeping a conference organization with this kind of uncertainty is not good.

[AshamedCaptain]

"And why do you feel so strong about these policies? It's not like they're going to ask if you are a children when you arrive at the airport."

Just to also point how the grandparent comment's remark kind of misses the point.

[brodouevencode]

The posturing over sexual preference is completely a passive aggressive white western phenomenon whose proponents insist on projecting to other groups whether they are willing to accept the dogma or not or whether they care or not, but simultaneously exclaim the evils of colonialism while not saying a word about your country in public because you're not white. There's an image they have to uphold.

[FireBeyond]

One also assumes that the PSF will be similarly reluctant to sponsor a conference in Orlando/Miami, or Memphis/Nashville, given Florida and Tennessee's rankings as two of the worst states in the country for LGTBQ persons...

[brodouevencode]

I frequent both of those states and it's the same as kabanda1's point: no one cares. There are plenty of LGTBQ people in both, particularly in Nashville, Orlando, Palm Beach, Hollywood (FL), Knoxville, and Miami.

[throwaway16399]

> I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here have no idea what LGBTQ means and those who do don't give a damn.

Counterpoint (quotes from Wikipedia about Tanzania, where the conference was held):

> 95 percent of Tanzanian residents believed that homosexuality is a way of life that society should not accept [2007 survey]

> same-sex sexual acts (even in private and consensual) are criminal offences, punishable with life imprisonment

> On June 19, [2013] Human Rights Watch and the Wake Up and Step Forward Coalition released a report including several detailed allegations of torture and abuse of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) individuals while in police custody.

> In 2018, a so-called "witch hunt" was declared against gay people in Dar es Salaam, where gay men were forced to endure anal examinations and torture.

[_cenw]

> This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power.

If your policies put people at risk, limit to participation is a natural consequence. There is no conspiracy here.

>I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here have no idea what LGBTQ means and those who do don't give a damn. Those leading the making of laws and noise making are just populists after their bread. [These are facts, hoping they still matter]

>If you feel so strong about attending the conference, no one is going to ask your sexual orientation at the airport. Tourists are coming in everyday. Qatar has just hosted the world cup, how many LGBTQ people were jailed? If you don't feel safe, just skip the conference or attend online.

Bullshit.

You are asking people to be invisible, when that's not practical or possible a lot of the time. You are just saying people wouldn't be offended if they don't have the information to be offended. That is not remotely the same as safety.

Case in point: I'm visibly trans, I don't have a toggle for my appearance. I'd be turned around the border in most gulf states.

Also, Quatar used the World Cup to crack down on their domestic gay population by (yes this is real) catfishing them, posing as foreigners looking to hook up. So to answer your question: A whole lot of them got jailed.

[ploum]

You are perfectly right that asking people to not care about the laws of a country is problematic. For personal safety and also as a moral stand point.

But that should not be a reason to not fund conferences in those countries, conferences which are a way to learn, to discover new things.

What do you think about conferences organizers, of every country, having to put on their website a little explanation of the laws of their country.

Each explanation would be something:

"In our country, the law forbid XXX. We are very sorry for the people concerned by this law and we are sad about those laws. We would ensure that the conference space is a safe space but they should be aware of those rules still apply in the whole country.

In every case, always choose safety. We are missing you, we hope to have the chance to meet you in another time.".

I feel like installing a tradition of such a disclaimer for every tech conference in the world would:

1. Force people to acknowledge issues in their own country (instead of minimizing them). And I guess every country has its own problem.

2. Show support for the victims of those laws and, indirectly, showing supports for the victims in their own country

3. Advance the cause, change mentality. It forces locals and politicians to be confronted with the fact that international visitors (which every country is trying to attract) may disagree to the point of not coming to the conference.

4. It would be nearly risk-free for conference organizer as it could also be defended as a polite way to ask attendees to respect the law.

[rbanffy]

> But that should not be a reason to not fund conferences in those countries

How would you feel about the PSF (or any other society you sponsor) helping conferences in places you'd not be able to attend because you simply would not be safe there? I understand there are good reasons for funding conferences in countries that would be hostile to many PSF members, because not all people who'd attend to such conferences agree with the intolerance (by law or by custom).

> "In our country, the law forbid XXX"

I would not wish the PSF to be seen as supportive of such behavior.

[ploum]

" helping conferences in places you'd not be able to attend because you simply would not be safe there? "

I’m avoiding visiting lot of countries where I know that people like me are not safe. Sometimes to the astonishment of my family "but, seriously, there’s no risk. It is a touristic country". Yep, but they put people I feel connected to in jail. I will not go. But I would be glad if they have more hacker-type events.

One country where I don’t feel really safe anymore is USA (at least some part of it). Lot of people cannot attend conferences because they can’t enter USA. Yet, it probably makes sense to still fund conferences in the USA.

So why not everywhere else, even if some people cannot attend?

[tuetuopay]

> How would you feel about the PSF (or any other society you sponsor) helping conferences in places you'd not be able to attend because you simply would not be safe there?

I would feel very good, because those places are often ignored from such events. A conference in a place is done first for the locals. Saying to all of africa "sorry you can't have a conference this year because the westerners that have 10 a year would not be able to come" is what would make me feel bad. Add on top of that coming to western conferences from africa is usually way too expensive for the median income there. Oh and travel issue for passports when getting into the US or Europe.

I've been reading this whole thread as "westerners being entitled to go to an african conference, run by and for people in africa"

[leadingthenet]

I agree with you, but conversely, the organisers shouldn't feel entitled to Western funding either, in that case.

[tuetuopay]

Is the PSF western "by design" or "de facto", the latter being the foundation having "accidentally" only western people on board? In theory the PSF should be worldwide with people from everywhere. Otherwise we should call it "EU+US PSF".

However the reality is, it is staffed by westerners and funded by western companies. So it's a de-facto western foundation.

[pierat]

There's a HUGE difference between:

"Our country taxes alcohol stupidly high, and nudity is 100% OK"

And

"Women are second class citizens and owned by their male counterparts. And we put gay people and trans people to death."

As much as I hate saying it, it doesn't matter who the individuals in a country are, and how tolerant they are. The laws by the ruling power are what you have to follow.

And fuck no going to a country based on Muslim Sharia. I know their book, and their brand of hate. Call it 'islamophobia', but I'd also be enslaved or executed if I stepped foot on their territories.

[rbanffy]

Last time I checked, as an apostate, I'd have a death penalty waiting for me in many countries that operate under such religious laws.

Also, if they know I am an apostate, and they ask me that at the border, I'll have to choose between death because I am an apostate, and death by a likely more painful method because I am an apostate and I also lied to a customs officer.

[em-bee]

even mentioning politically sensitive topics is not risk free in some places.

expecting this from every conference could potentially put conference organizers at risk for criticizing their local laws or culture.

at best this information can be shared by global institutions. so the PSF could issue their funding accompanied by such a statement

[_cenw]

Every place is a tradeoff. The US can be inaccessible through sheer travel cost too.

And it is absolutely true that it is a western double standard. Football tournaments in gulf states and all.

I was more upset the top comment in this thread is "shitting on human rights is just a difference of opinion" apologetics.

[bee_rider]

I mean, sports organizations are widely regarded as horribly corrupt and more-or-less evil by anybody who cares about this kind of stuff and looks into it (I think?). It isn’t really a double standard unless you expect the whole “West” to share an opinion.

[kabanda1]

I am not asking anyone to be invisible. I am just saying we need to go back to reality and see things the way they are supposed to be.

How long ago were the LGBTQ people also at risk in the Western world? I understand organisations like PSF have their codes to abide by and safety of attendees is and should be a priority.

But if your main mission is to promote python in the whole world. It's not impossible to issue an advisory that LGBTQ people are advised to do this or that about a given location. Python coders have nothing to do with politicians.

[_cenw]

Oh, you're definitely asking that.

supposed to be, right, let's stop talking about this before I violate the unwritten rule of good tone trumps everything on HN.

[bivgh]

Okay, then don't go to PyCon Africa or PyCon Saudi Arabia or whatever. You're not obliged to attend.

Your own life choices regarding body modifications and suchlike don't need to be held over everyone else in those regions who will benefit from these conferences.

[braza]

> You know very well that coders are among the most reserved people on earth, why punish them for their government rules?

I'm more or less on the same camp, but I am not African I come from another similar challenging demographic for the mainstream axis of tech (USA and Europe) and I'm reflecting a lot about it and I think we're going back to the "equal but separate" world in tech.

One thing that you should keep in mind is that a lot of folks within PSF have some pressures regarding optics and at the end of the day they are on the hook in their local conferences, companies, and local meetups, even if they personally do not believe in those restrictions.

At the time that I had the same issues at some local/national conference for other "X software foundation" the concrete action that we took was to de-risk and get local companies on board, individuals, and move forward.

I do not want to sound cynical, but I think those folks should get rid of PSF baggage and its "control by money", high horse cultural posturing, the politics and start small without all this.

[melagonster]

>You know very well that coders are among the most reserved people on earth.

Do not free/open source software activity or geek culture feel like more close to leftwing?

p.s., this comment doesn't try to refute you.

[_lvbh]

I think they meant reserved as in introverted rather than conservative.

[melagonster]

this make sense, my fault haha.

[znpy]

It looks like that from outside but it really isn’t.

Stallman fir example was very clear about free software having nothing to do with communism, but of course people take just what they want from facts and ignore what they don’t want/like.

But, as i grow older, i realise itself not just software and it, it’s like that in most things.

[melagonster]

I know free software is not communism, but leftwing do not represent communism, too. maybe I should not use the word "leftwing" here? like "A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace", I always think geeks toward to change society with new technologies in past stories.

[stuckinhell]

> will the world ever go back to reality ?

Probably not, identity groups all over the world have been brought into direct conflict over limited resources thanks to new communications technology shrinking the world.

LGBTQ is a very powerful political movement in America.