[codebeaker]

I haven't seen the documentary, but my anecdotal experience visiting SF annually since 2016 for work is that it's utterly dire.

I live in northern europe, in Germany, so our bar is high, quality of life is good, but i'm no snowflake prude, around Market Street in San Francisco is simply disgraceful.

I witnessed on every trip passers by being harassed sexually by mentally unstable, or drug abusing people. I was offered to buy a stolen gun in broad daylight a block over from the Twitter building. I saw a gang of people storm a hair salon on Market St. and attack the occupants, spilling out into a 10 person brawl on the street. I've seen people jumping turnstyles and being assaulted by police/security personnel.

It's a really desperate situation.

[michaelteter]

I cannot speak about SF as I have no experience there; but as an American with a lot of recent experience in Netherlands and recent but less lengthy experience in Germany, I have been surprised by how bad the homeless/mentally-ill/drugged-out situation is around train stations in Germany compared to the Netherlands.

It would be expected to encounter such people in the biggest city (Berlin), but I also saw it in half a dozen other cities I spent some time in. It was very confronting and very uncomfortable as I would have compassion on mentally ill or otherwise "hard luck" people, but in some cases there was real risk of aggression. At the very least, I couldn't wait (for a train) outside a station because of the very loud yelling (at invisible enemies) that some of the people would do.

I asked a couple of Germans about this situation, and they said that while there are social services and mental health services available, the state seems to have a problem keeping up with the mentally unstable people. The people will get some time in help but then scatter to the wind, revert to their drug use, and turn up outside a station somewhere (where they will remain, day after day, for some period of time).

I wonder why this seems to be much more of a problem in Germany compared to NL. Perhaps it's just a matter of population scale? General way of life and social services aren't so different between the neighboring countries.

[bcrosby95]

Note that market street around the Twitter building has never been a great area of SF. I think part of the hope was that it would re-vitalize that part a bit. Moving around SF is weird because the difference from street to street can be huge.

[foobazgt]

I didn't live in SF, but I flew there several times a year for over a decade. Market Street definitely saw a huge decline over that period. By the end, coworkers were refusing to walk it anymore for safety reasons.

[melenaboija]

> I live in northern europe, in Germany, so our bar is high,

I think seeing western European countries, and more specifically northern ones, should make the Americans ask themselves if something is wrong here. And probably these should be deeper than "how is it possible this happens in the richest country in the world" that I have heard so many times.

[michaelteter]

Income inequality typically tracks with crime. Of course, policing and criminal penalties are a factor as well, but income inequality is likely primary driver of crime. If so, then it's no surprise the US is worse than Germany.

People generally do not behave as criminals when they have reasonable opportunities to spend their energy in return for a livable wage and relatively comfortable, safe housing. And there are many, many examples of zones in the US where there is effectively no economic opportunity nor safe housing opportunities.

That said, lack of police presence and especially lack of penalties does seem to encourage bad behavior (amongst people who find bad behavior as their best economic activity). The laws and policing have to keep up with the times and situation. Obviously SF cannot solve California's (or the US's) income disparity problem. So even if it were to up the police presence and make stiffer penalties, it wouldn't have the infrastructure to process and imprison the large numbers of people (coming from other cities) who are committing crimes there.

Therefore, it takes a more holistic approach and a number of years to reverse these negative trends. And given the state of US polities, I don't see any real chance for progress for some times (at least until a whole generation of voters die off).

Meanwhile, if you look closely at Europe, you'll notice that politics is shifting and income inequality is increasing. Basically many European states are gradually following the US model. We know where that will lead them.

[tiahura]

So even if it were to up the police presence and make stiffer penalties, it wouldn't have the infrastructure to process and imprison the large numbers of people

Rubber hoses and a free ride to the city limits don’t require infrastructure and were an effective solution for decades before progressives took power.

[michaelteter]

Over the last decade, income disparity has increased dramatically (and correspondingly, cost of living and housing). The poorest 10% barely saw an increase in income, before considering the negative impact of inflation. The top 10% saw their income almost double during the same period. And since much of this had to do with high tech companies setting up shop in an already-full region, cost of housing went up dramatically.

One might ask why all these companies moved into SF, especially into areas known to have more "progressive" leadership, but that's a different topic.

As for rubber hoses, that would be met by large numbers of angry people - many of whom would arm themselves in some way (including guns). Would you then propose just firing live ammunition into crowds as a solution? These types of solutions are like cutting off a limb because of a skin rash; usually that's not the right answer. If you think street drug people are bad for business, just imagine frequent street gun battles.

And driving the people to the city limits and dumping them? We already have evidence that the more organized property criminals are driving in from outside the city. Obviously they can't afford to live in the city anyway.

[archagon]

No, it was sadistic and really not an effective solution to anything at all.