[jetzzz]

> We (NL) should stay on permanent summer time.

> Reasons

> ...

Why not just have time as close to solar as possible and move working hours as needed? I have always found arguments for permanent summer time very confusing. Just move working hours as needed, why do you need to deviate the entire clock from the solar time for that?

[this_user]

Because we no longer live in a pre-industrial society where people start work with the sunrise and go to bed at sunset, because the only available artificial light is candles. For the vast majority of people, noon is not the middle of the day.

[recursive]

So what does "noon" even mean? Why is it significant?

[GoblinSlayer]

Maybe fix that? Make solar noon the middle of the day. Then clock can show any number.

[adhesive_wombat]

Because many people for some reason don't strongly value the derivative of the solar inclination being zero and a local maximum within at most slightly over 30 minutes[1] of an analogue watch having the hands both vertical, on the few days a year that the equation of time is zero.

[1] Because the equation of time might not be exactly zero at noon, the Earth isn't a perfect ovoid and you could be up to 7.5 degrees of longitude from the centre of an hour-wide timezone, even if you drew them perfectly straight down the globe with no regards to national borders.

[tgsovlerkhgsel]

Because it's easier to adjust the clock than to get employers to adjust schedules and to adjust public transit etc. accordingly.

[GoblinSlayer]

Public transit suffers from coinciding schedules: when all people rush at the same hour same minute, they create rush hour.

[highmastdon]

Interesting perspective. I'd like to use that and say that we should have solar noon in the middle of our "awake" hours instead of in the middle of our work hours. This would benefit even more. We're not in a society where your activities are from dawn to dusk, more so, it's usually from dawn to dusk+evening time.

So, let's take the assumption that the average awake time is 7:00 - 22:00. Gives us 15 hours of awake time.

Solar noon should be at 7:00 + half of the awake time: 7 + 15/2 = 14.5 = 14:30

To calculate sunrise on the longest day and shortest day we use: 14.5 - half of light time

To calculate sunset on the longest day and shortest day we use: 14.5 + half of light time

This means sunrise and sunset in Amsterdam:

summer, longest day, 16:48, 16,8 hours:

- sunrise: 14.5 - 16.8/2 = 6.1 = 6:06

- sunset: 14.5 + 16.8/2 = 22.9 = 22:54

winter, shortest day, 7:41, 7.683 hours:

- sunrise: 14.5 - 7.683/2 = 10.6585 = 10:40

- sunset: 14.5 + 7.683/2 = 18.3415 = 18:20

Given this reasoning, instead of being GMT+1, Amsterdam should be GMT+3 all year round

[ghaff]

It's basically a coordination problem. Workplaces, schools, stores...

[GoblinSlayer]

How do you expect stores to coordinate? If they worked during work hours, what's the point? People work during work hours, they don't go to stores. To solve this stores work around the clock or until 21 hour.

[ghaff]

I don't. That's the whole point. Many/most stores, schools, companies, etc. are open about the same hours year-round. To the degree that people prefer those hours shifted relative to the sun at different times of the year, using DST provides that coordination at the cost of everyone having to change their clocks (or having a computer do it for them) twice a year.