[nullflux]

Why are we are focusing consistently on a short-term solution to what seems like a larger issue? I personally don't see a quick fix to all of this, and it seems to me that the real solution is more holistic than we seem to be pushing for.

In every one of these that gets to a couple hundred comments, we end up with two big groups that appear: "bros" that are "just having fun" and y'all need to "lighten up", or some stereotype of a misogynistic engineer that hates women because women consistently slighted the character throughout his life. In the first case, you have to fight a subculture that commoditizes women; in the second, you have to fight years of maladaptive behavior, and negative feedback from a cycle of sexual and social ostracization, where their defense became vilification.

Both of those cases are going to be really tough to change in the short-term. In the best case scenario we'll get a few to see the light, but when there are emotional ties to this type of behavior there is a lot of cognitive dissonance that has to be cut through before any change is truly realized. In the tougher cases all we will actually do for the present generation is bury sexist sentiment into a back channel somewhere, which doesn't help the end cause.

Yes, let's lead by example, but let's also try to start at the origin and get things sorted out before such discriminatory practices can get deeply rooted. Go talk to some college engineering teams. Let's get more women involved in the things that these guys are doing, and give them equal opportunity to show their abilities; the culture is often more meritocratic than not. Take it one step further if you have kids, and teach them that gender roles are just as bad as racism. The bros will realize that their actions are slowly being obsolesced, and the shunned will be proportionally less so. It takes work from both ends and we are really only ever pushing one angle hard.

EDIT: Drastically rewritten in hopes of being clearer.

EDIT 2: Minor bits and pieces, again.

[nl]

It's because there's a lot of talk about something that in the end I highly doubt will be fixed anytime soon.

Well that (it not being fixed anytime soon) is a big problem.

a lot of this discrimination appears generational and likely won't be solved shortly by this method of self-correction.

Actually, the evidence is otherwise. For example, in the linked post:

Traditionally, high tech has been dominated by young Caucasian and Asian males (go back another 20 years, and it was just Caucasian males). Like many other parts of society, entrepreneurship has become more inclusive.

Additionally, the "typical" YCombinator startup is full of young people (who often are male). The "it's the old generation" argument doesn't stack up, and the "wait for them to die" solution is unacceptable.

It's hard to see how either of these groups are easily changed by blog posts, "awareness" of the issue, or even pure coercion.

Actually, it does seem to work. Find me an example of a startup that acted in a sexist way and continued that behaviour after it was highlighted.

The truth is that awareness is one of the things that has been shown to work, and even if there are additional things that can help additional awareness is not a bad thing.

[nullflux]

People are misunderstanding; it's time for an edit.

What I'm trying to get at is that awareness alone is not going to solve this issue, and we are very narrowly focused on this "Be aware!" thing. You're not going to self-correct big things like this; in a lot of cases you might truly correct it but you will just as much bury the sentiment in others who truly believe these types of things.

EDIT: Also, I don't understand how the quote you referenced is evidence otherwise, but perhaps we're miscommunicating. Rewrote my post in hopes of being a little clearer.

[DannoHung]

Awareness will work against casual, environmental sexism. That's the fucking point: It's background radiation so you don't even pay attention to it. Get it? That sort of atmosphere of boys club is actively hostile to non-conformant people.

Be aware of the environmental issues, don't tolerate flare ups even if a person is technically competent, think about how you could be a little more welcoming. Doing that would be a huge first step and will do a lot towards making the generational changes you're talking about reality.

We all, collectively, have the power to make technology an environment welcome to all races, creeds, and biological persuasions. Do as much as you can personally and try to make sure other people are aware of the issue.

[lucian1900]

As a male geek all my life the "boys' club" atmosphere bothers me. I think that's a little funny and a little sad.

I've noticed that pointing out the problem correctly usually works great, because nowadays most people don't do it out of spite, as the article said.

[japhyr]

I don't think many people "truly believe" that women are objects. I think most people who are contributing to the problem are just ignorant of the effects their actions have.

If this is true, then increasing awareness can have a significant impact on culture.

[chrisyeh]

I think this argument hits it on the nose. Almost all of the offenses stem from ignorance, not malice. Almost all of the offenders would change their behavior if they were aware of the impact it had.

[rimantas]

  > misogynistic engineer that hates women

Maybe he loves women, and that's the reason for having picture of one?

  > such discriminatory practices can get deeply rooted.

Just to clarify—by "discriminatory practices" you mean that it is bad there was only picture of woman, not the man, and hence males are discriminated against?

Really, guys did you even stop to think about what is sexsim, what is discriminatory?

What is the vision of your ideal society: genderless, bland, wrapped in burkas?

[gaius]

I'm imagining a hypothetical News.YC frequented by primary school teachers, getting worked up every few days about that field's lack of men. Or nurses. Or librarians. Or maybe gender imbalances in certain professions are actually a complete non-issue?

[chrisyeh]

It may be that at teaching/nursing/library science conferences, there are presentations that feature images of Chippendales dancers and fireman calendars and are met with hoots of approval. If I were a man sitting in the audience at these hypothetical conferences, I'd feel pretty uncomfortable.

The fact that a field lacks gender balance isn't the point. The point is that whatever the field, people shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable.

[antihero]

Perhaps the more women go into IT, the more jobs there will be for guys in nursing or teaching or whatever? :)

But on a more serious note, you cannot equate anti-male sexism with anti-female sexism, not yet, because one has a history of being both the oppressed gender and the exploited class, and the other just the exploited class.

[nl]

Gender imbalance isn't a problem on its own.

Behaviour that discriminates on the basis on gender is.

[shalmanese]

I'm fine with some problems being generational but there's no indication that the next generation is necessarily more enlightened than the previous. I really don't want to have to wait two generations.

[nullflux]

Younger generations are often more malleable than older ones. There is a reason why many cultures have a proverb similar to the "old dog, new tricks".

I'm not saying that there's nothing we can do now, but the kind of change you're looking for isn't likely to just happen overnight because you don't feel like waiting for it. These things have lots of momentum and emotion behind them.

[geoffschmidt]

This seems to boil down to "Oh, it's so hard for the men to change. They've had a hard life too! Cut them some slack."

I couldn't disagree more. Sexism will end when we (1) educate people about what constitutes sexism, (2) stop tolerating it.

Everyone can help with (1) to some degree. Not every one is in a position to do (2), but those that can, such as the many startup founders that read HN, should.

It seems to me that in your post you are doing the opposite of both. You are arguing that we should stop talking about it, and that we should tolerate it.

[nullflux]

That's not what I'm getting at at all. This might be the most misunderstood thing I've written. If this keeps up I'll likely rewrite again.

Read my last paragraph in my post again, please. What I'm trying to get at is that if you want to really squash an issue let's do more than the easy thing of "awareness". Why don't we actually get involved somewhere else? Help out in the places where this type of crap actually originated and keep it from happening in the end. Try to prevent the problem, don't just suppress it when it arises in certain cases. It seems the better long-term solution; IMO it's easier to correct less-formed opinions and put people on the right track then. "How to correct sexism in Silicon Valley" isn't just "hey, get mad at people when they say something out of line", it's also "hey, let's try to get people to understand why this hurts us in the first place".

[geoffschmidt]

Do you really think this article didn't help? Do you really think that anyone who read it is going to behave like the Geek List guys did?

You'd have to be really clueless to read it and then make the same mistake that they did. For better or worse, public ridicule is an incredibly effective tool for changing behavior. It changes the behavior not just of the person who was ridiculed, but of everyone who saw it happen.

So yes, I think it is totally realistic to change people's behavior today, "by getting mad at them when they say something out of line." It's unpleasant for everyone concerned, but it works.

Your "better long-term solution" sure is "easier" for us men, but it's not easier for the women...

Also, fundamentally what you are doing is excusing sexist behavior. You're saying "these people, in some sense, aren't fully in control of their actions; it's not their fault that they didn't get the appropriate training as children; it's too hard for them to change." I think that that is a harmful idea to advance. First of all, it gives people cover when they behave inappropriately. Second, it's disempowering -- nobody wants to be thought of as a helpless case that can't change.

[nullflux]

We are still missing each other somewhere here.

I'm not saying that this article doesn't help, but I'm saying it's the equivalent of pouring water on a fire, and we're ignoring the systemic cultural stuff that started the fire in the first place. What I'm arguing is we need to stop thinking "Pour water on this until it goes out" and also make sure that we take away the fuel for such behavior by trying to solve many of these problems earlier.

[chrisyeh]

As LinXitoW put it, I think we need to do both. But it's a lot easier to call out what's offensive when it's right in front of you, than it is to change the demographics and training of an entire industry.

[LinXitoW]

Maybe a fitting summation of your argument would be:

Don't just fight the symptoms, fight the reason/root/cause as well.

(?)