[dataworm]

> The notion that all soldiers fighting on the Germany side in WW2 were monsters is, however. If the world subscribed to your ideology, there'd be a catacomb of millions buried under Nurnberg (there's no such thing, if you wondered).

Where did I say that all soldiers fighting for Germany in WW2 were monsters? I invoked Nazi Germany because you said there are no nazis and monsters and everyone is a regular human.

[klibertp]

Somehow, not all soldiers fighting for Germany were monsters, but

> russian soldiers are evil nazis, not normal people.

Russian soldiers are. These are your words from upthread. Why is Russian army staffed by "evil nazis" exclusively, while actual Nazi army... wasn't?

[dataworm]

> Why is Russian army staffed by "evil nazis" exclusively, while actual Nazi army... wasn't?

What do you mean by 'actual'? Just because the russian ruling party aren't calling themselves National-Socialists doesn't mean they aren't 'actual' nazis. Search for "rashism". russia is even more evil than Nazi Germany because Germany had one very bad episode in 1933-1945, while russia has been committing atrocities, oppressing and occupying ever since the Grand Duchy of Moscow.

[klibertp]

> What do you mean by 'actual'?

I mean the historical Nazis from WW2. Again: you admitted that not all Wehrmacht soldiers were evil, monsters, or even Nazis (other than nominally). But, in your words, all soldiers fighting for the Russian Federation right now in their aggression on Ukraine - are all bad people.

I'm asking, why do you agree to cut some slack for the former but are unwilling to do so for the latter?

Other than the latter being involved with you, personally, destroying your country and killing your people right now - of course. My grandpa lost 5 of his siblings to Germans in WW2 - they were civilians, killed because his uncle was a butcher, and happened to have a knife with him when they met German soldiers. It made him hate Germans, all of them, no exceptions, and I'm not surprised it turned out like that. He kept this hatred (only second to his hatred of Jews) to the very end of his life, and that's understandable, but it was irrational. I don't believe some Hans or Johann deserves to be hated 70 years later because of what happened back then. Similarly, dehumanizing and demonizing the whole Russian military (EDIT: or even the whole nation), including those poor convicts that supposedly die in droves as fodder for "human wave" tactics, is not rational now. I understand that hatred can be an emotional support for affected individuals, but it doesn't help the situation; instead, it makes it worse.

[dataworm]

> Again: you admitted that not all Wehrmacht soldiers were evil, monsters, or even Nazis (other than nominally).

I mostly meant that I don't think all of them should have been executed, 18 million Germans served in the Wehrmacht.

> I don't believe some Hans or Johann deserves to be hated 70 years later because of what happened back then.

The russians have been oppressing and killing Ukrainians for over 300 years, 1991-2014 was just a small pause. Nazi Germany, on the other hand, existed for only 12 years, and Germany is very different now, and most soldiers that fought in WW2 are dead. russians keep doing horrible things since a very long time ago and hating them is completely justified until russia is denazified and becomes a normal country. People like Ivan the Terrible, stalin, putin wouldn't keep coming to power if something wasn't very wrong with the russian nation, and by the way russia consists of many different nations that were subjugated by muscovites. russia has a much longer history of pure evil and that's why I consider most russians evil. While killing all of them is wrong, they should be occupied and reeducated, and never allowed to have a large military and nukes ever again. Given the low population density of russia, most of its sparsely populated lands should be shared between all countries to provide living space for billions of people that isn't affected by global warming.

[klibertp]

> The russians have been oppressing and killing Ukrainians for over 300 years

I know - and they did the same here, in Poland. We've lost our sovereignty, our culture was suppressed for centuries, and then we lost our elites in mass killings under Stalin again. I know, and believe me - I don't love Russians, nor do I support them.

They are culturally closer to the Mongol hordes of Genghis Khan than to Europeans. Not that Europeans have no skeletons in their closets, esp. regarding the colonies and what they did to Africa - but the Russian Empire and its later incarnations did a lot of bad things. I agree with that.

But, I still don't want to classify all of them as "evil". They think differently, have different values, and are brought up with particular ideology that disregards things like human rights or democracy. They don't know any better, and it's not their fault they were born into such a culture or society. You don't get to choose where you're born!

Still, I understand your point of view. I disagree with forcefully re-educating and assimilating them - that's precisely what they did to us for centuries, and that's wrong. But, as long as we agree that:

> While killing all of them is wrong

We can talk, discuss, and find some common ground. What I'm against is blind rage, blanket hatred, and taking revenge just for the sake of it. But rationally, Russians, as they currently are, pose a real threat, and we need to contain that threat somehow. We should be able to do so without killing and even more bloodshed. At least, that's what I hope for.

I'll repeat: I think most Russians, even the soldiers, are ordinary people. It's just that normal people, when put in certain circumstances (like the famous prison experiment), tend to do evil things. You and me, we'd probably do those things too, had we lived the way Russians live. Let's talk about shaping the circumstances (also through re-educating them, if possible, without a threat of physical violence) so that they can live their lives in ways that don't threaten their neighbors - ways that don't bring the worst of human nature to the front.

In any case, no killing, please. Other than that, though, all options should be on the table (even if I disagree with some).

[dataworm]

> I disagree with forcefully re-educating and assimilating them - that's precisely what they did to us for centuries, and that's wrong.

The Germans were forcefully re-educated after WW2, do you also disagree with that?

> In any case, no killing, please.

The russian leadership and war criminals will have to be killed, and they fully deserve it.