[underdeserver]

Civilian casualties in Gaza are a tragic, unfortunate side effect. It's terrible. But October 7th changed things. 1,200 dead, 240 kidnapped, more than 100,000 still displaced. "Some problems are intractable" is not good enough anymore, our lives are in danger.

So Israel acts, with the goal of destorying Hamas's military ability. If you forcibly take away the other side's guns they can't shoot you anymore. That's not a syllogism, it's simple logic.

This is a solution with a terrible cost, brought about by Hamas's continued active use of their citizenry as human shield. Hamas can end this today by disarming and surrendering. The Gazans would get a functioning state and a better life for their citizens.

Israel doesn't have this option - right now it is do or die.

If there is a way to neutralize the threat from Hamas without civilian casualties, I'm all ears. If not, I assert that any reasonable westerner would act exactly the same. Go ahead and prove me wrong.

[ceejayoz]

Oh, I don't doubt we'd do the same. We did it in Afghanistan.

IMO, that wound up a cautionary tale that proves my point.

Israel, like the US in Afghanistan, cannot achieve this goal via their current approach, no matter how much they wish it.

[underdeserver]

There's a huge difference. With Afghanistan, Americans living in Chicago or New York or Houston were halfway across the world. This is here. Gaza is 35 miles from Tel Aviv and 40 miles from Jerusalem.

I don't know what the goals were in Afghanistan. Short of ICBMs, I don't see how Afghanistan could ever threaten the US. The threat against us is local and immediate and has already proven to be real.

[ceejayoz]

Rightly or wrongly, the US went into Afghanistan because of a "local and immediate" event in New York City in 2001. It serves as an illustration of how hard it is to change a population's ideology via force. The distance isn't really what matters.

Again, I don't doubt the threat. It's demonstrably real. I doubt the IDF's current response to that threat is going to be successful at neutralizing it. I strongly suspect the response to that threat is going to make things worse in the next few decades.

[underdeserver]

There's still a large difference. The Afghan government collapsed. The Afghan people, presumably, did not fear for their lives enough to stand up to the Taliban. Biden said "American troops cannot and should not be fighting in a war and dying in a war that Afghan forces are not willing to fight for themselves."

This is not about Israel protecting someone else. This is about physically protecting our home. We do this or we die.

Hamas rockets have the range to reach about 80% of Israel's population. They've shown willingness to amass and fire them in large numbers. It's not a question of "if", but "when". Again, would you sit and wait?

[ceejayoz]

> The Afghan government collapsed.

So'd the Palestinian one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007) No elections in seventeen years, now.

> The Afghan people, presumably, did not fear for their lives enough to stand up to the Taliban.

I would presume, as with Hamas, that it's the opposite; that fear for their lives is precisely why they do not stand up to violent extremist groups controlling their area.

> Again, would you sit and wait?

I'd start with fixing the intelligence failures that permitted the attack to proceed.

Ignored warnings: https://www.ft.com/content/277573ae-fbbc-4396-8faf-64b73ab8e...

Halted overnight/weekend operations: https://www.timesofisrael.com/top-israeli-intel-unit-wasnt-o...

I'd also be investing a lot in expanding things like Iron Dome and border surveillance.

There are actions available that are not "flatten entire blocks of Gaza and displace a million people, generating the next generation of pissed off extremists".

[underdeserver]

First let's continue to distinguish between the PA, that's still functioning (for some definition of the word) in the West Bank, and the Hamas government of Gaza.

> I would presume, as with Hamas, that it's the opposite; that fear for their lives is precisely why they do not stand up to violent extremist groups controlling their area.

I can accept that.

> I'd start with fixing the intelligence failures that permitted the attack to proceed.

Of course they're doing that, and will continue to do that after the war ends.

> I'd also be investing a lot in expanding things like Iron Dome and border surveillance.

Here's the thing about Iron Dome and border surveillance. These are like watchdog mechanisms and monitoring systems for software. You can add as many of these as you like, at some point you're going to have downtime. You and I don't know of all the times significant attacks were planned and foiled. We do know of all the rocket attacks - of which there have been many over the years - and Iron Dome is not perfect.

> There are actions available that are not "flatten entire blocks of Gaza and displace a million people, generating the next generation of pissed off extremists".

You've suggested defense. I agree. We should be better at defense. We should fix as many bugs in our defense as we can. But as the quote goes, the bomber will always get through. Things will not materially change until the extremists on their side* are removed from power, both for Israelis who live in fear of attacks, and Palestinians who live in fear of Israeli retribution - but also in dire economic terms and without prospects, even well before October 7th.

* and ours, though their damage is generally directed at the West Bank for now

[HDThoreaun]

> "Some problems are intractable" is not good enough anymore

"some problems are intractable" isn't an argument here, it's a fact. You can't just say "this fact isn't good enough". The entire idea that an occupation of Gaza could possibly lead to a demilitarization of Gazans is incredibly naïve, Iran will never stop arming terrorists in Gaza. Occupying a hostile territory always leads to more terrorism, not less. There is no reason to believe that this occupation will make Israeli's safer, and many reasons to believe it will make them less safe. Obviously it sucks to be in this situation, but rejecting the reality of the situation doesn't help anyone.