[JohnFen]

> but until such things transpire we have an ethical obligation to tip and tip well, right?

I don't think so, no. I don't think there is any ethical obligation to tip at all, and there never has been.

I am under no ethical obligation to be abused by companies using their employees as human shields.

[TheCleric]

I agree you’re not under an ethical obligation to be abused, but to use a company’s services where all parties expect you to tip, and then you don’t that’s unethical as well. You don’t get to have your cake and eat it too.

[JohnFen]

People can expect whatever they want, but there is no actual obligation to tip. It's not a matter of wanting my cake and eating it too, it's a matter of rejecting the premise that what should be a way of expressing appreciation is being subverted by employers to underhandedly supplement wages.

If the tipping is actually mandatory, then build it into the price to begin with. That way, perhaps tipping can go back to being an actual expression of thanks.

[lotsofpulp]

The only unethical thing here is pretending you are owed money without telling the other party they owe you money.

[TheCleric]

I agree, but here’s your notification: if you go to a bar or restaurant and receive service you should tip.

If you don’t like this, don’t go.

[demosthanos]

It's not that simple. If I go to a restaurant and order at the counter tipping is typically considered to be entirely optional, in spite of the fact that the PoS system would like you to think it isn't.

Then there's the whole spectrum of space in between. What about order-at-counter but the food is brought to you when it's ready, but you then clean up after yourself? What about a buffet, where you pay at a counter, serve yourself, but someone comes and cleans up your plates?

An alternative heuristic that I've heard is that if you pay in advance than tipping is optional, while if you pay at the end it's required, but that doesn't cover Doordash.

There are clear cut cases where tipping is required, and a whole fuzzy mess in between. And that fuzzy mess gets fuzzier and messier each year as companies intentionally blur the line.

[lotsofpulp]

I receive service everywhere I go, from the people who clean floors and bathrooms to the people who make food to the people who stock shelves, and even do engineering drawings for me.

[beepbooptheory]

But isn't being a patron of one these companies precisely the thing that does put you in this kind of obligation?

Isn't the whole thing about human shields that we don't want to hurt the humans in question?

[JohnFen]

No, I reject the premise that there is an actual obligation to tip. The obligation is to pay the bill.

[beepbooptheory]

Ok! Sorry about that, and good luck with everything.