[Manuel_D]

Close air support is not that significant a role against a peer adversary. The Ukraine war has shown that modern air defenses are good enough to make CAS far too dangerous. Fixed wing aircraft doing CAS averaged something like 6 sorties before being downed or irreparably damaged. And for CAS against a non-peer adversary, older generation craft are viable (F-16s are still in production, remember).

[ryao]

All other modern conflicts are asymmetric and have shown CAS to be important. The Ukrainian conflict is the only symmetric conflict in recent history, and the F-35 is no where near it.

[Manuel_D]

Sure, and in asymmetric conflicts where the enemy has no modern air defenses you can keep using F-16s (which are still in production) and save on the maintenance requirements. The F-35 can mount external stores and haul about as many bombs as the F-16 if it needs to. It's true the Ukraine conflict is the only symmetric conflict in recent history, but the military's job is to remain prepared for symmetric conflicts.

[ryao]

The F-16 is also terrible in CAS. They tried to replace the A-10 with it, but failed. The F-35 is not faring much better for that.

As for symmetric conflicts, the F-22 is far better for handling those. Its production was discontinued because the military had no need for it. Having the F-35 for a role where there is no need seems silly. It isn't even as good in that role as the existing F-22 fleet.

[Manuel_D]

The F-16 has conducted CAS just fine for decades. What made the F-16 terrible at CAS that the A-10 did so much better? I'm tempted to say loiter time, but with conformal fuel tanks and drop tanks I think the F-16 may even be beating the A-10 at that. Both can mount the same targeting pods, so their ability to engage targets on the ground are effectively identical.

The F-22 is a dedicated air superiority fighter. Of course it's going to be better in that specific role. But which is better at operating from aircraft carriers, the F-22 or F-35? The F-35 costs half as much as F-22, too.

[ryao]

The F-16 is not used for CAS because it would be shot down by ground arms fire when the A-10 would continue flying, and flying the F-16 high enough to avoid ground arms fire made it lousy at CAS:

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/heres-f-16s-cas-variants-fai...

The F-22 is labelled as a multirole fighter. Its ability to handle other roles is limited, and its main role is not needed. You claimed that the F-35 is good at air superiority as a way of demonstrating its value, but the F-22's discontinuation demonstrated that a fighter for that role is not needed. Consequently, the F-35 theoretical competence in air superiority is not in any way an indicator of its value.

That said, the F-35's ability to handle all roles seems limited. It tries to be able to do so many roles that all of its competencies are handicapped. That is why it has criticism as being a jack of all trades. If it were multirole in the sense that the F-22 is multirole, it would not have that criticism. :/

[Manuel_D]

Your link isn't discussing the F-16 in a CAS role, it's discussing a specific variant of the F-16 where they attempted to mount a 30mm canon pod to it which yes, failed badly.

Modern CAS doesn't involve strafing tanks. Planes are staying well above the altitude small arms are capable of reaching, dropping LGBs, CBUs, and air to ground missiles on targets. The notion that resistance to small arms fire makes the f-16 terrible at CAS is a very odd point to make.

The f-22 was discontinued because it was very expensive, much moreso than the f-35. It was also due to the end of the cold war, and no real global competition with peer adversaries. Would the f-22 have been cancelled if we knew what geopolitics in 2023 would look like? Not so sure about that.

[2OEH8eoCRo0]

People don't understand the role of the F-35. It's the blingy first one in during the pivotal moment of gaining air superiority. Just because the F-35 exists doesn't mean we are ditching all other aircraft. Once the skies are clear you can use literally anything else for CAS. Helicopters, gunships, etc.

[fgoesbrrr]

> Once the skies are clear

The problem in Ukraine is that the ground is not clear (mobile air defense and MANPADS). So neither side is using planes for CAS.

[ryao]

The F-22 exists for gaining air superiority.

[2OEH8eoCRo0]

Yep. Also requires an airfield.

The F-35 can take off from an LHD (not a full-fat carrier) which means they can be anywhere. Scary for an adversary.