[yakshaving_jgt]

Sorry, how many died? Where are you getting your figures?

The implied defence of russia is particularly inappropriate, given the russians have raped, tortured, and massacred tens of thousands of Ukrainians just in the past couple of years. If you're taking ethnic cleansing to simply mean displaced, then russia is guilty of ethnic cleansing to the tune of millions of civilians.

[thriftwy]

Not many has died, but they have all left and have no hope to ever return to their homes. Contrast that to Balkans where a lot of people already returned to their homes, and way more could return if the hatred could be held in check, to which "humanitarian bombardments" history is a huge deterrent.

I'm not talking about defence of Russia, or Serbia, because they needn't one. The USA/NATO need to defend their involvement in civil wars to help one of the sides which make these civil wars worse every single time, as well as making at least one side even more bitter and preventing normalization of affairs for longer.

I, for one, do not want to ever hear any more moral judgements from you. You have no moral basis to have them.

Right now, the US is backing up an ethnic cleansing agent that is IDF, while placing high hopes on ethnic cleansing as a way to resolve the conflict.

I would be very glad to remove my comments if you remove the whole branch of your accusations, which are wildly out of place.

[yakshaving_jgt]

> they have all left and have no hope to ever return to their homes. Contrast that to Balkans where a lot of people already returned to their homes

It's difficult to return to your home when you're dead.

[thriftwy]

It is difficult to all sides of the conflict to return to their homes while being dead.

This is why fuel should not be put in the fire of ethnic civil wars. By encouraging your party of preference to score a win you encourage the other party to stiffen their resistance, leading to massive casualties and no resolution. Because the only actual resolution would involve sides talking and making concessions, and you didn't want your preferred party to do that, because you decided they are right all around and so should just get what they want, in full.

What happened in Bosnia with Dayton agreements could still happen, just earlier and with way fewer deaths.

[yakshaving_jgt]

There is no "all sides" to this.

By your own admission, "not many has died" [sic] in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. This contrasts with the tens of thousands of Bosniaks who literally died because they were massacred by Serbs.

[thriftwy]

That's a civil war. People die on all sides and lose their homes. In Nagorno-Karabakh, the Armenian population was so sure of its upcoming fate that it packed its bags and left as one, in about two weeks period.

Bosniaks just considered it's better to risk death but keep their homes. Serbs who lived there also did the same choice. The peace talks should have started immediately.

I have exactly zero faith in any accusations coming in from US/NATO because that's Jack the Ripper handing out traffic tickets scenario. So let's pretend I didn't hear about "blah blah massacred blah blah", and you didn't post that. That, and you are trying to pass a list of news report at eleven as a list of document war crimes in the other thread.

[mydriasis]

"How many died" and "Where are you getting your figures" are disturbing questions when speaking about ethnic cleansing. These people have had their homes and lives taken away from them.

Like the Ukrainians. Like the Ugandans. Like the Armenians of the early 20th century. Like the Jews. Like the Cambodians. Like the Bosnians. Like the Croats. Like the Serbs.

All of this is history, all of this damages a people and their culture. Let's not put a yardstick next to it to prove how bad things are. Let's remember why these things happened so we don't do them again.

[yakshaving_jgt]

Fair enough, but in that case, why are you replying to me? Shouldn’t you instead be replying to the guy who used whataboutism and compared the deaths of tens of thousands of Bosniaks to the displacement of 150k Armenians?

My comment on the comparison was in response to their comparison.

[foverzar]

> given the russians have raped, tortured, and massacred tens of thousands of Ukrainians just in the past couple of years

Sorry, how many died? Where are you getting your figures? (C)

P.S. How does that rape trope in western propaganda manages not to get old? It's basically copypasta.

[yakshaving_jgt]

There are many sources, although I don't believe you're arguing in good faith and you're simply here to troll.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/09/ukraine-civilian-casua...

> How does that rape trope in western propaganda manages not to get old? It's basically copypasta.

There are many, many documented cases of russian soldiers raping women and children in Ukraine.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFSmddcgiDo

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OusviV2Qd4o

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGeGJF0e1gs

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmWMBtjBf24

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cJ_YmhL62Y

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l7oAxACmlY

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq1ZSp_hnCs

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMsz-WNNVQw

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRD2xGW2Hb4

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRLytM-1-Q4

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w28fh62dXT0

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhriOrErRPE

[foverzar]

> you're simply here to troll

An awfully convenient attitude to having your claims challenged.

> https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/09/ukraine-civilian-casua...

You are claiming tens of thousands killed, tortured and raped by Russians, but this data actually contradicts your claim: while there are lots of injured, the death toll is about 9k, half of them killed in Donetsk and Luhansk, which makes it more likely that they were killed by Ukrainian Armed Forces.

And that's ignoring all the casualties in Donetsk and Luhansk before the escalation.

Civilians getting in the crossfire is always a tragedy that each side tries to exploit to their own benefit, acting like they've totally transcended the problem of collateral damage and those other guys are doing it on purpose.

> There are many, many documented cases of russian soldiers raping women and children in Ukraine.

a) The X soldiers raping women (and children!) is a basic dehumanization technique. Serbs did it, Iraqis did it, Russians are doing it, Chinese are doing doing it, Palestine does it. Apparently literally everyone at odds with "western" political block seems to be doing it, which begs for some questions. The matter of sexual violence gets an easy emotional response and and demands very little burden of proof. And then we also have characters like Lyudmila Denisova, who are happy to craft stories like that.

b) You aren't seriously claiming that things you've linked could be held to a standard of "documented"? Hell, one of them is an "intercepted call" (somewhat popular medium to portray those evil orcs, and my god, does that LTE encryption sucks) with a woman literally saying: "so, hubby, how's fucking all those Ukrainian women going on :)))))))" - that totally sounds natural AF.

Not to turn this into a blindly dichotomic argument, war obviously sucks and obviously there are people who are killed, tortured and raped, and each one is one too many. But spinning propaganda and dumbing everything down to a perfect dichotomy of all good vs all evil is only going to make things worse for everyone, especially for ordinary normal people who just want to live in peace.

Just as you do, Russian media also have a shit load of "documented" cases of some evil shit and narratives of grannies having their legs torn off by HIMRAS missiles.

And in both cases, instead of a wakeup call, it's used as an excuse for MOAR weapons, MOAR warfare, MOAR destruction and death.

[boffinAudio]

See also Yemen, the willfull murder of 5% of Iraqs population, etc....