Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by KrakenEng 939 days ago
Kraken's response: https://blog.kraken.com/news/kraken-continues-to-fight-for-i...

> The complaint against Kraken alleges no fraud, no market manipulation, no customer losses due to hacking or compromised security, and no breaches of fiduciary duty. It includes big dollar amounts but does not allege a single one of those dollars is missing or misused – no ponzi scheme, no failure to maintain adequate reserves, and no failure to preserve the identity of client funds 1:1. Indeed, none of these things would be true.

> Instead, the complaint makes a technical argument: that Kraken’s business requires special securities licenses to operate because the digital assets we support are really “investment contracts.” This is incorrect as a matter of law, false as a matter of fact, and disastrous as a matter of policy.

...

> The SEC already tried this theory and a court rejected it outright. The SEC argued in that case that digital assets bought and sold on trading platforms were really securities transactions. The Federal Court for the Southern District of New York disagreed, ruling that the SEC failed entirely to satisfy the relevant legal test. The court held that the SEC’s unprecedented legal theory was contrary to the “economic reality” of such transactions. The SEC’s case against Kraken will fail, too, and for the same reasons.

> The SEC alleges that Kraken “commingled” its own funds with its clients’. This is a similar allegation already made of other crypto trading platforms. The SEC cannot and does not allege that any customer funds are missing, or any loss has occurred. Nor does it allege that any loss will occur. The complaint itself concedes that this so-called “commingling” is no more than Kraken spending fees it has already earned.

> The SEC famously argues that digital asset trading platforms like Kraken can simply “come in and register” with the agency. As most securities law experts know, there is not a single law on the books supporting this position. The SEC has promulgated no rule describing how an order in a digital asset should be matched, no guidance on how a trade should be cleared, and articulated no standards for how to broker a digital asset transaction. The allegation is hollow; there is no such thing as an exchange, broker dealer, or clearing agency for investment contracts. The SEC is demanding compliance with a regime that doesn’t exist.

1 comments

My favorite part is this:

> Meanwhile, groups of lawmakers from both sides of the aisle have questioned what they call SEC’s “regulation via enforcement” approach. They have asked why the agency’s actions against crypto firms seem less focused on “compliance and customer protection,” but were instead “calculated for maximum publicity and political impact.” Others have observed that the SEC’s strategy “does not protect the public.” Indeed, this suit does nothing to protect the public. Like those in complaints that have come before, its allegations are factually incorrect, contrary to law, and the wrong way to create policy in the United States.

To me the SEC and Gary Gensler are going to get their arses handed to themselves once again.

> “calculated for maximum publicity and political impact.”

I'm not a fan of crypto currency, but a big part of my dislike for it is how difficult it is to actually use it. I don't mean technically though. I mean legally.

In Canada, all crypto transactions are considered taxable events. Did you sell a couch on Facebook Marketplace using Bitcoin? Time to calculate your capital gain or loss from a vaguely worded set of guidelines.

It's all political IMO. The real value in crypto is having a currency that isn't subjected to the whims of governments and the people that control monetary policy alongside the massive payment networks like Visa and MasterCard. Controlling the flow of money allows pseudo bans on things the people that control those systems don't like.

My hot take on the whole thing is that half the goal is to make it well known that all the remaining exchanges perform strict KYC and that crypto transactions are trivially easy to track while being extra complicated to report on your taxes (at least in Canada). Once that's done crypto currency doesn't have much value to anyone.

> In Canada, all crypto transactions are considered taxable events. Did you sell a couch on Facebook Marketplace using Bitcoin? Time to calculate your capital gain or loss from a vaguely worded set of guidelines.

Even if it were a real honest-to-god currency it would be the same though, right? That's how it works here in Japan at least - buy a couch in dollars, now you have to calculate capital gains against your average cost basis for dollars (which I guess includes every dollar you earned in your whole working life, if you lived in Canada before you moved here?)

No, transactions in national currencies are exempt if under a reasonable cap. So you don't have to separately declare every time you bought Starbucks overseas or whatever.
It sounds wonderful when the biggest worry you have about money is how to file your taxes. If that were true for most people on this planet bitcoin would probably not be needed.
> It's all political IMO. The real value in crypto is having a currency that isn't subjected to the whims of governments and the people that control monetary policy alongside the massive payment networks like Visa and MasterCard. Controlling the flow of money allows pseudo bans on things the people that control those systems don't like.

What a surprise that the government isn't about to make it convenient to evade its authority.

> Once that's done crypto currency doesn't have much value to anyone.

It already doesn't. The lofty early promises have long fallen flat and all that is left is a game of hot potato. It's not utility, it's just a lottery, which economically speaking is negative utility.

> The real value in crypto is having a currency that isn't subjected to the whims of governments and the people that control monetary policy alongside the massive payment networks like Visa and MasterCard. Controlling the flow of money allows pseudo bans on things the people that control those systems don't like.

Would you say the same is true of arms trafficking or contraband in general? Personally, I can't think of a reason why a society wouldn't want to control who and what goes into and out of its territory.