[hanzmanner]

That doesn't capture the range of their dark patterns. I am literally testing this now. I am on Delta website going through the booking process (redirected form Google Flights). The price at Google Flights was $578. Delta website is showing that 1 seat is available (at this price). When it prompts to select the seat there are no seats available at this price. I am offered to upgrade to Comfort+ for $60. I am already 10 min into the process. And just to preempt your possible argument: when I go to the previous page it still shows that 1 seat is available at this price.

[squeaky-clean]

Google Flights runs on a cache, so it can be out of date. This is mentioned in their fine print somewhere.

Delta's own website should be accurate though. I think this is actually legally required. If you can take some screenshots and contact customer support I guarantee you someone will get yelled at, and you may get some sort of compensation.

I know this because I was once the person who would get yelled at (not for Delta). If you could include the time and your local timezone, as well as the market (your country or VPN country) that would help out the person who's going to get yelled at.

Just to clarify, I say "yelled at" as a bit of an exaggeration. But these customer reports were always a big deal where I worked. It usually boiled down to a stale cache issue. But because the airline controls the cache and ticket inventory[0], cache invalidation should be perfect, sans a few ms latency.

[0] Kind of... Not really. It's a mess how the systems really work. But they do get messages for each ticket purchase.

[hanzmanner]

I have shared the screenshots in this thread.

https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo

I don't trust Delta enough to have any desire to reach out to them.

[arcticbull]

Your use of the word “seat” is overloaded - the one in fare search buys you passage on the plane. More formally we’d call that a ticket. That doesn’t mean you’ll be able to assign a seat during checkout if the ones available for complimentary assignment have already been assigned by others.

And that’s not a problem, if you don’t care where specifically you sit. Once check-in opens you’ll be assigned a seat. Including from the inventory that normally requires you pay extra. Without an additional fee.

If you do care where you sit you can elect to pay extra in advance.

A “seat” in the search results is booking passage on the plane. You are looking at optional, complementary advance assignments. Those are taken at the moment.

I hope that clears it up!

I wouldn’t call this a dark pattern - some airlines like Southwest don’t even let you select seats at all! Some airlines require you pay a fee for any and all seats, mostly low-cost carriers. This is just an example of unbundling. If you value a specific seat assignment you can pay for it. If you don’t, no problem, your flight is cheaper.

[hanzmanner]

That's not what the clear explicit agreement between the two parties is in this case. Why do sellers list any product details at all?

Both Google and Delta have this in writing: I am paying for a seat I can select. If that's not included in the sale - no problem, don't list it.

I am not against seats being sold unassigned. I am not against charging an additional fee for being able to select a specific seat. And this argument is not about that.

The dark pattern is listing "free seat selection" and "1 seat available" before I choose this flight and agree to continue the booking process, while then changing the value of the product by asking me to pay an additional fee for the seat selection. The seats in the main cabin are available (see screenshots). They are just not available for me to select for free. If Delta knows that there are no selectable seats at this price left on the flight, why do they include that in the listing?

I am really not sure where this disconnect is coming from. I am not arguing against all additional fees, not arguing against seating being assigned at check-in. Just make it clear before I commit to the process, so I don't waste time. This is the definition of a dark pattern.

[arcticbull]

> Both Google and Delta have this in writing: I am paying for a seat I can select. If that's not included in the sale - no problem, don't list it.

No they don't, and no you're not lol. You're paying for transportation from the origin to the destination. Not on a specific flight number, not on a specific number of connections, not on a specific mode of travel even. Seat selection in advance is an optional service that may or may not cost money. You're getting a seat. Not a specific seat, not until you go through the selection. Your fare entitles you to free selection subject to inventory.

In fact the contract of carriage actually requires them to get you from the origin to the destination by whatever means is reasonable and appropriate. The CoC actually allows them to substitute your flight for a train or bus if reasonable and appropriate. The way it's written a horse and buggy may work too. United has codeshared along the northeast corridor with Amtrak historically. Even busses. For instance from Ottawa to Montreal Air France had one with a flight number that connected to an onward Paris flight.

That's something I could see someone being upset about, but the definition of 'seat' (once you know, you know forever) feels like a weird hill to die on. The interchangeable use of 'seat' and 'ticket' is an English colloquialism.

Note that Delta considers Comfort Plus a separate cabin not Main Cabin. If there's no Main Cabin seats at check-in they'll upgrade you.

> That's not what the clear explicit agreement between the two parties is in this case.

The explicit agreement is actually to the Contract of Carriage. For instance. [1]

> Delta will exercise reasonable efforts to transport you and your baggage from your origin to your destination with reasonable dispatch, but published schedules, flight times, aircraft types, seat assignments, and similar details reflected in the ticket or Delta’s published schedules are not guaranteed and form no part of this contract. Delta may substitute alternate Carriers or aircraft, change its schedules, delay or cancel flights, change seat assignments, and alter or omit stopping places shown on the ticket as required by its operations in Delta’s sole discretion.

Seat selection forms no part of the Contract of Carriage.

Credit where due to Delta, they even have it in Plain English! Not just legalese.

[1] https://www.delta.com/us/en/legal/contract-of-carriage-dgr

[hanzmanner]

Thanks. The next time I submit my "interest in availability" of a "certificate" for "transportation from the origin to the destination" on a "web service" affording a "data exchange between a service provider and a private entity requesting the certificate", I will make sure to hire a team of lawyers to look into ToS of all parties involved.

How could anyone confuse the words "free seat selection" and "1 left at this price" with anything other than "you are buying whatever, we really don't care and can charge for anything we want regardless of what's written in any listings". Silly me.

Saying that, I think I am starting to get it. My mistake was not looking into the origin and the legal definition of the word "seat" before attempting to book a flight.

But just to make sure I resolve this issue once and for all, could you please help me with a few more legal definitions?

What do these words actually mean: "reservation", "flight", "buy", "payment", "free", "selection", "person", "destination", and "confirmation"? Thanks again!