[aslilac]

calling USB A “legacy” and a “relic” is so misplaced. we all still own USB A devices. I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. it’s possible, but not easy.

the thing is, we could just have both! this isn’t some winner/loser scenario. the real question should be why these computers with enough bandwidth for 11+ connectors don’t at least split the difference with 6/5 of each. gives device manufacturers enough confidence that customers will be able to plug in the thing they bought, and gives consumers the ability to plug in anything and everything they need. then in 5 years when things have advanced we can start talking about entirely consolidating on USB C.

[drdaeman]

> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. it’s possible, but not easy.

My Moonlander Mk1 does, it has C-to-C cable with an optional C-to-A adapter on one end. My mouse is type C, but it comes with C-to-A cable.

But, obviously, this is chicken-and-egg kind of a problem. No one will build a cheap mass market keyboard with a C-to-C cable for a market (desktop computer users) where type C connectors are nearly non-existent. Extra components (adapters or extra cables) won't be worth it. If the majority of desktops will shift to have majority of their ports of type C, you won't find a type A keyboard anymore. Just like you will have some difficulty finding a PS/2 keyboard today (sure they exist, but aren't exactly widespread anymore).

[arcticbull]

USB A was released in 1996, it's older than I suspect the majority of HN readers at this point. An A to C cable is entirely passive, so not exactly a big deal to get a cheap adapter.

Not sure I'd rely on keyboards as the standard bearer for 'not a relic' many of them still support PS/2 via passive adapter. That was announced in 1987 and is older than me.

[picture]

Comparing technology to human lifetimes doesn't seem very relevant. Even not accounting for broad categories like "fire" or "language", we're still using individual technology from "long ago" like knives, forks, pen and paper, etc. It's fine to make improvements that keep backwards compatibility (more ergonomic scissor should be able to cut the same paper), but changing connector just because it's old is unwise.

The issue of type C is that it's trying to accommodate the entire spectrum of applications from very high bandwidth to very low cost. The range of possibilities has much increased since when Universal Serial Bus was devised, thus many recent solutions feel like they're bad at everything and good at nothing. Perhaps we should allow the specialization of type A as a cheap, reliable, slow, high power, connector, and save type C for only when high throughput is needed?

[arcticbull]

> ... but changing connector just because it's old is unwise

Well not because it's old, I'm a huge fan of my 1/8" headphone jack.

Type C is intentionally significantly more functional (not to mention the ergonomics of reversibility) but also fully backwards-compatible requiring only passive routing to get you a Type A adapter.

> The issue of type C is that it's trying to accommodate the entire spectrum of applications from very high bandwidth to very low cost.

That's up to the host. You can support just USB 2.0 with the same signals routed as a vanilla type A connector.

There's even super cheap USB-C receptacles that only have the relevant USB 2.0 pins routed out. Like this one [1].

There's really no reason I can think of not to use one.

[1] https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/gct/USB4125-GF-A/1...

[picture]

I've implemented USB-C with PD and SS speeds before, so I know. I've even used if not that exact same connector, but at least a functionally same one from LCSC.

It's just that these reasons seem so inconsequential to me. There's stuff like type C needing two extra resistors even for USB 2.0. Being able to adapt between connectors is also BS in my opinion because you can convert anything between anything if you really wanted to. And if you only use USB HS speeds, you'll just waste connect lifetime of your expensive higher-specced cable. Sure, you can get 2.0 only type C cables, but why? I think there's no good reason to use USB-C besides high bandwidth purposes. Barrel jacks or supply power better. All our normal peripheral devices aren't consuming exponentially more bandwidth anytime soon.

[linuxdude314]

Absurd comparison. It’s completely irrational to compare computer hardware is if it’s just some tool.

If you don’t need the bandwidth, good for you. The rest of us choose modernity and nice things like, USB-C hard drives, network adapters, etc…

USB-A is not a connector, it’s a whole spec. You can’t get the same performance out of that connector as you can a USB-C connector.

[Tijdreiziger]

You can push 10 Gbps over USB-A connectors with USB3.

[necovek]

I haven't seen a USB-A port implementation that exceeds 10Gbps (3.2, was it?).

I just assumed there aren't enough lines/pins in a USB-A connector for it to work.

A quick search gives me https://www.tomshardware.com/news/usb-3-2-explained which supports that experience (USB-A is not listed under 20Gbps).

[picture]

I'm perfectly fine with higher bandwidth connectors, but don't force it on the majority of users who do not need the modernity and nice things. Have Type-C as a dedicated high bandwidth connector and don't force me to use it on my devices that don't need the high bandwidth.

[throw555chip]

The wheel was invented before anyone living today yet it remains relevant.

[arcticbull]

Only because this is living rent-free in my head - a good wheel analogy would be Type C is rubber wheels and Type A is wooden wheels. Compatible, but nobody uses wood anymore.

[throw555chip]

Actually some continue to use wooden wheels:

https://dcrwheels.co.uk/custom-wheelsets/building-with-woode...

"Ghisallo have been making rims since the 1940s"

[arcticbull]

That's really cool :) thanks for sharing!

[JohnFen]

I don't think that analogy works. On the female side, Type A is robust and Type C is fragile. I'd prefer to have my equipment with the more robust solution if at all possible, because fixing it is a real problem.

[abhinavk]

Weirdly, the port on a cheap mechanical keyboard I have is USB-C but the cable they packaged is USB-C -> USB-A instead. They likely didn't package C->C because of the chicken and egg problem. Not everyone has enough Type-C ports.

[Retr0id]

Type-C hubs are annoyingly expensive, because they all assume you want all the USB 3.x speed and/or power delivery bells and whistles - but for connecting simple peripherals none of that is necessary.

I built my own based on a USB 2.0 hub IC, but I never got around to publishing the design files. I should get on that!

Even building a single prototype unit cost me about the same as a single off-the-shelf type-C hub, but of course, building subsequent units would be substantially cheaper.

[vladvasiliu]

> Type-C hubs are annoyingly expensive, because they all assume you want all the USB 3.x speed and/or power delivery bells and whistles - but for connecting simple peripherals none of that is necessary.

I've also noticed there are next to no usb-c hubs, apart from "docks" that usually do many more things are bigger. But, don't they have to provide the specced power to be "compliant"?

What I find annoying is that even "higher end" docks don't have many usb-c ports. I'm typing this through a HP dock that has a big-ass power adaptor and is quite big and heavy itself (has a huge heatsink), yet it still provides only one usb-c port. At least it seems to implement PD (I can charge a laptop through the downstream port), even though I think it only provides 15W.

[0x38B]

I was outraged when I couldn’t find a small, simple USB 2.0 USB-C hub for my Framework! (1)

1: the four USB-C ports it provides aren’t enough for my use; one is occupied by Apple’s USB-C DAC (the Framework’s 3.5mm port is unusably noisy with my Shure IEMs). Then add my charger, tethered iPhone, and a peripheral like a mouse or drawing tablet, and you can see why I need a hub.

P.S. if you did release the files and it was a reasonably affordable DIY project (e.g some soldering and assembly), I’d love that. Although I guess you’d need to buy a fair number of all the components to bring the price down.

[jorvi]

> Type-C hubs are annoyingly expensive, because they all assume you want all the USB 3.x speed and/or power delivery bells and whistles - but for connecting simple peripherals none of that is necessary.

Meanwhile the most frequent complaint I read about USB-C is trickster/confusing cables or hubs because they don’t support everything

[Retr0id]

My theory is that's why it's so hard to buy a "featureless" hub - consumers will demand refunds if feature X is not present.

[antifa]

I have more trouble using Amazon's useless filters or finding products that even try to be more specific than just "USB-C".

[qmarchi]

Mine, a fairly budget mechanical keyboard, came with a C-C cable, but includes a small C to A adapter.

[tazard]

Same. Keyboard and mouse

[fnordpiglet]

Almost every device I’ve bought in 2023 is usb-c now, even low end stuff, and keyboards and mice. By 2025 I’d expect it’ll be rare and unusual to see a micro port on any new device. USB A is definitely legacy.

[layer8]

PCs still come with half a dozen or more USB-A ports and only a single USB-C port (if you're lucky). Dongles, flash drives, webcams and the like are still prominently USB-A. Logitech's lineup is still mostly USB-A. I'm not sure that there will even be a full transition to USB-C, but if so, it will take quite a while.

[fnordpiglet]

PC motherboards are often like a study in the history of PC motherboards with vestigial functionality that hasn’t been in widespread use in decades. That’s a fairly poor indicator, and I think it largely happens to buffer the feature sheet, take advantage of cheap pricing on components over time, and copy and paste functionality in their design software. It’s over. The only place for a USB-A is on an aftermarket USB hub. That’s ok. It was nice while it lasted, but it’s time to move on.

[layer8]

There is no incentive for manufacturers to use USB-C over USB-A for applications that neither use charging nor need above-USB-2.0 speeds. A lot of peripherals and gadgets fall into that category. Another factor is the limitation on available PCIe lanes depending on chipset. If you can provide 8-10 USB ports, you won’t be able to give all of them USB 3 speeds, and having USB-C ports with different speeds on the same device would be weird, as there is no color-coding mechanism like with USB-A.

[microtonal]

I bought a new machine last week (Intel NUC 13 Extreme). It has three Type-C ports of which two are Thundebolt. We are slowly getting somewhere. Meanwhile my phones, displays, keyboards, all use Type-C connectors. Though some came with a USB-C to A converter.

We are slowly getting there.

[cesarb]

Counterpoint: I also bought a new machine, a couple of weeks ago (Optiplex 7010 Micro). It has six USB A ports, four of them USB 3 and two of them USB 2 only, with the option to add a single USB-C port (or instead an extra DP or HDMI or even VGA or serial port); if you add that option, that USB-C port (which has DP alt mode) can be used to power the computer (instead of using the barrel plug), which is nice.

Very high end devices might have more than a single USB-C port (which is probably your case, given the "extreme" in the name), and these ports might even be Thunderbolt or USB4, but that's still rare. In my opinion, we are still in the USB-C equivalent of the "only two USB 2 ports, if you want more get a PCI add-on card" phase we had in the serial/parallel/PS2 to USB migration back in the day.

[dylan604]

I just bought a new device that came with a USB-A to USB-B cable!!!! the horror!! Makes sense, as it pretty much functions like a printer, only subtractive instead of additive process. Then it has Bluetooth instead of WiFi for wireless!?!?

[pynappo]

i think the GP was talking about wired peripherals that plug into usb-a ports on the computer side, not wireless mice/keyboards which use usb-c to charge

my current wireless mouse/wired keyboard have usb-c on the peripheral end but I still use usb-a to connect them to the computer

[Gigachad]

These days it's common for the wire to not be fixed in. So it's just a usb-c port on the keyboard and you can use whatever cable you want.

[davegirdy2]

I'm still confused with the term GP. Shouldn't it be OP?

[abdullahkhalids]

GP means grandparent. It refers to the comment exactly two up.

Ex. From my comment, GP is the comment by pynappo, starting with "i think the GP was talking... "

Similarly, you can have GGP for great-grand parent, etc.

OP refers either to the starter of the post or the top level comment.

[zargon]

The OP would be the geenspun.com post or cute_boi, depending on context. The grandparent, in this case, is aslilac.

[numpad0]

It's always GP in this subreddit.

[aslilac]

going off of you saying “micro port” I think you’re talking about USB B.

[cassianoleal]

More likely they mean micro-USB. USB-B is anything but micro.

[chungy]

Micro-USB is a variant of the USB-B connector. The whole point of A and B was that A ports were used on the "host" system, and B were used on the peripheral. If you remember USB On-the-Go, that was an attempt to reverse the trend and allow a USB-B device (including micro ports) to act as a host.

USB-C erased that distinction in favor of a full duplex network connection between two hosts.

[lxgr]

USB-OTG ports are technically mini-AB and micro-AB ports that can fit both A and B plugs.

And USB-C is neither full-duplex (at least not for USB 2) nor host-to-host; there is a protocol negotiation and some devices can never act as hosts, although some can indeed assume both host and device roles.

Even in a “host-to-host connection”, only one side will act as the host.

[Dylan16807]

> Micro-USB is a variant of the USB-B connector.

In the same sense that A and B are variants of each other, sure.

Even though it's called micro-B, the design is closer to A, and micro supports both ends with basically the same plug. I would never refer to it as just "B". "B" means the square plug.

[davegirdy2]

"some devices can never act as hosts, although some can indeed assume both host and device roles"

[crote]

If we're being pedantic, it's USB Micro-B - more specifically the High-Speed variant. There's also USB Micro-A and USB Micro-AB, and all three have SuperSpeed variants which are twice the size.

[dylan604]

Thanks for the reminder on just how bad the USB working group is at naming things.

[cassianoleal]

Thanks, this is new information.

I wasn't being pedantic though. USB-B is in my experience used to refer to the square plug (commonly found in printers). Micro-USB seemed like a closer approximation to what I though that poster was referring to.

[sh-run]

My mouse and keyboard are both usb-c and I wasn't specifically looking for usb-c when I ordered either of them. Logitech MX Master 3 and Keychron Q1. They are both relatively high end devices, but I don't think it's hard to find usb-c devices.

That said I do own lots of usb-a devices and will continue to own them for the foreseeable future. I would not purchase a laptop that was usb-c only today.

[vladvasiliu]

Is your MX Master the "mac" version? The reason I ask is because my 3s came with a USB-A dongle (which I prefer instead of Bluetooth). I've never used its charging cable, so I don't remember whether it was c-c or c-a. It also didn't have a C-A adapter provided, so if you want to use the dongle and only have usb-c ports available, you have to supply your own.

[sh-run]

That's a good point, thanks for keeping me honest! Mine is not the Mac version.

USB-C to charge it, but dongle is A now that you mention it. It stays plugged into the back of my monitor.

[throw555chip]

This keyboard is brand new, Type A. I don't recall any I was shopping for to be Type C.

[blueflow]

> calling USB A “legacy” and a “relic” is so misplaced

Calling established technologies "legacy" and "relic" despite them being widely adopted and used should be recognized as the manipulative intellectual dishonesty that it is.

[upon_drumhead]

http://codekeyboards.com are currently USB C as are https://www.wasdkeyboards.com

[crote]

Note that these are keyboards and not mouses, and they have USB-C sockets rather than permanently attached cables with USB-C plugs. They are also very premium products.

When it comes to the entire ecosystem, a $5 bargain-bin noname OEM keyboard with permanently-attached cable is more representative - and those definitely don't come with USB-C yet. That would probably add a few cents to their BOM, so it simply isn't worth it yet.

[hughesjj]

To be fair I'd much rather us converge to 'sockets on both ends' now that the plug is the same anyway

Throwing away a perfectly good device because the cable is kaputz exacerbates our e-waste problem

[upon_drumhead]

I was replying to this specifically

> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. it’s possible, but not easy.

where they do specially call out keyboards

[rgoulter]

More generally, I'd think many/most mechanical keyboards are USB C.

But I'd think that the budget, off-the-shelf keyboards would be USB A.

[rootusrootus]

That is fairly meaningless, though. My six year old CODE keyboard could be USB-C today if I wanted, it uses a detachable USB cable. They wouldn't even need to make any changes to the keyboard other than including a different cable.

[matheusmoreira]

Those keyboards are really beautiful...

[dangus]

On the other hand, the introduction of USB-C will reach its 10 year anniversary in just a couple of years.

If this were 2008 you would definitely call a parallel port, a 56k modem, or a floppy drive a relic even though you probably used one in 1998.

[anonymouskimmer]

My 1996 $2000 Packard Bell was effectively unusable by 2003 or so. My 2003 or so upgraded machine couldn't play Youtube videos by 2012. My early 2013 $600 Lenovo laptop is still going fine today (though it helps that I don't game anymore).

[dehrmann]

That's not a fair comparison considering how compatible USB-C is with USB 3.0 A/B.

[dangus]

Compatibility wasn’t what motivated people to switch away from the parallel port, 56k modem, nor the floppy disk.

Consider this exercise: The Nintendo Switch is the third best-selling console of all time. Walk me through how you would design it if the only port was USB-A.

[anonymouskimmer]

Back in 1998 there were 4 or 5 main port types. And today there are still 4 or 5 main port types (with bluetooth as well). Compatibility was indeed the reason to switch to USB in the first place, as the universal serial bus made plug-and-play real. No reason not to have two USB port types, except device thinness.

The only issue the parallel port, 56k modem, and floppy disk share in common is throughput. This isn't a problem with USB-A compared to USB-C (until USB 4.0 becomes mainstream).

[dangus]

You can buy middle American mass market automobiles that have USB-C and do not have USB-A. That’s your bellwether.

Most of the USB user base doesn’t care about that nerdy stuff.

[anonymouskimmer]

I'm not a tech nerd. I'm a lab biologist who just comments here. Multiple ports is my non-nerdy, non-rich use case.

My current car is almost 17 years old, and was bought used last year to replace the 20 year old car that I totaled. I certainly can't afford most cars with any USB ports, and wouldn't want them if I could.

Are car USB ports used for anything other than smart phones?

[korginator]

USB-C is simply more convenient to use, and you get it right 100% of the time, instead of your orientation being wrong 50% of the time with USB-A.

[crote]

Just don't accidentally stick USB-C into a USB-A port. It will fit and it will short the port, causing the machine to crash. Speaking from experience...

[Kuraj]

Also don't accidentally stick an USB-A port into an Ethernet port. It will fit but your peripheral won't work

[lxgr]

Sometimes I look at USB-C plugs and US power outlets and wonder if there’s a shock hazard there…

[johnwalkr]

Once when I boarded a flight I noticed one of those multi-country mains power sockets next to a 2-hole headphone socket. They were arranged and aligned in a way that made it obvious that a 2-prong headphone cable would fit in the power socket. I took a picture of it and put it on Facebook before taking off.

After a nap I actually did put on headphones and plug them into the power socket by mistake. Luckily nothing happened.

[ben-schaaf]

I look at US outlets and wonder about shock hazards.

[Zak]

I think most people in the US have stuck a finger between the two completely uninsulated prongs of a plug and got a shock, usually during childhood. They usually only do it once.

[deathanatos]

The USB-C plug would be both too tall and too wide for the hot/neutral part of the outlet, and too wide for the ground portion.

So, no?

[TylerE]

Would need a complete circuit. So unless you’re sticking in both ends of one cable to the same outlet…

[lxgr]

Depending on how well you're grounded, you might just be the component that completes the circuit...

As far as I understand, not all US power outlets have a residual current device.

[stephenr]

While you're at it, also don't accidentally plug a computer's Ethernet port into an rj45 wall plate that connects to an analogue pabx, it will fit and it will fry the NIC.

Don't put shit in the wrong hole is really one of the most basic lessons we should teach people in life.

[tentacleuno]

On my computer, the USB-C port is at the back -- one time, I shorted the motherboard out due to trying to insert a USB-C cable without looking. Only did it once, but learned my lesson.

[lbourdages]

Typically I get it wrong 100% of the time, i.e. I was in the right orientation but misaligned so it does not work, so I flip it, fails again, and then I swear and flip it a second time.

[accrual]

Indeed, USB superposition strikes again. Image:

https://global.discourse-cdn.com/boingboing/original/4X/9/6/...

[jacquesm]

If you get it wrong 50% of the time let me substantially reduce that for you: logo goes 'up' for whatever the normal orientation of your device is. That should clear up 99% of the cases.

[Zancarius]

I had a Cooler Master case where the IO stack at the top of the case had the opposite orientation (logo down). Threw me off forever.

I'm at a point in my life where I've just given up and figure that I'm only going to get it right 1/3rd of the time anyway: Nope, turn; nope, turn; yup.

[gweinberg]

More like 55%. The usb ports on the bac of my machine are sideways, and the one on the top is backwards-ass wrong from what I would expect.

[9991]

The motherboard has an "up" direction if you lay it out flat.

[jacquesm]

Eww that's weird, ok in your case you are out of luck. That's pretty strange though, I have a ton of USB-A devices here and they are all in line with the way I outlined. So that's a bit of a surprise but it may well be an exception.

As for the ones that are sideways: the 'bottom' of the case is the bottom of the motherboard, so if you think of it that way it might still work for all but the top side ones.

[koolba]

We live in a right handed universe so even sideways has a correct answer.

[iopq]

My desktop has all vertical ports, now what?

[jacquesm]

Normally speaking: right. Because the circuit boards are usually on the left. If they are not you're out of luck.

[themerone]

My pixel slate has a USB-C port that will only charge in one orientation.

[lxgr]

That sounds like it's either broken or there's some dust or lint in the plug/cable.

Google is usually pretty good about their USB-C implementations.

[themerone]

Of course it's broken. It also won't power on unplugged, even with a full battery.

Definitely not googles finest device.

[jgalt212]

might be a cheap cable.

[treyd]

I had a similar issue on my old phone and I'm pretty sure it was because of something wrong with the connector on the phone's side.

[userbinator]

Note that reversible A plugs exist.

https://www.pcgamer.com/youre-telling-me-we-could-have-had-r...

[davegirdy2]

I use a docking station to help give me dual monitors on both Mac & Windows. Some monitors don't work in Mac. Maybe I need to get a new docking station.

[2809]

USB-A has a straight forward top and bottom. Once you know this, you almost never connect it wrong.

[gweinberg]

Maybe it's a chicken and egg thing, but why do we still have usb-a keyboards and mice and thumb drives? wouldn't it make more sense for them all to be usb-c?

[toast0]

I have at least 10 computers in my house, and none of them have more than one usb-c port. More of them have zero. Two of those with a single usb-c are motherboards purchased in the last year or so.

If a mouse or keyboard or thumb drive expects to be used by an apple computer, or a phone, usb-c is the right answer. If it wants to be plugged into a PC, usb-a is a better choice.

USB-C instead of any flavor of USB-B makes a ton of sense, and everyone should adopt that, but USB-C instead of USB-A is a little soon for PC oriented products, IMHO. Wait a few years, or ship with an adapter.

[gweinberg]

Yeah, that's what I mean by "chicken and egg": We have all these usb A ports because that's what the peripherals expect, and we have usb-a peripherals because that's what we have ports for. My laptop has just one c port which I connect to a hub with a bunch of A ports. My desktop doesn't have any c ports at all. My car has one A port which connects to the phone for navigation (navigation using bluetooth doesn't work) and a whole bunch of c ports which are for charging only.

[cesarb]

Having them be USB C would mean they could only be used on USB C ports (adapters from USB C socket to USB A plug are forbidden by the USB standard, because they would allow creating the forbidden USB A to USB A cable), while having them be USB A allows them to be used on both USB A ports and (with a simple passive adapter) USB C ports.

[accrual]

> forbidden USB A to USB A cable

In the early days of USB before flash drives were common, I was convinced such a cable would let me connect two PCs together to transfer data. Spent some time looking around in stores before a kind sales rep advised they did not exist.

[cesarb]

> before a kind sales rep advised they did not exist.

Plot twist: they do exist, but not like you would expect. Unlike the forbidden USB A to USB A cable (which connects together the power supplies on both ends), there's a special debug-only USB A to USB A cable, which connects only the USB 3 pairs (and leaves both power and the USB 2 pair disconnected). Of course, that cable is useless unless you know how to put one of the devices in the special debug mode (and know which of the USB ports is the correct one, since AFAIK this debug mode usually works on only of the USB ports).

[justsomehnguy]

But they do, but they aren' passive and require drivers https://www.amazon.com/Plugable-Transfer-Compatible-Computer...

[lxgr]

That’s a very good point. It doesn’t stop some manufacturers from still shipping the “forbidden” adapter type for just that use case, though.

I prefer USB-A for FIDO authenticators for that reason (and because the plug is more robust for USB-A and basically indestructible; C plugs can and do get bent on a keychain).

[TylerE]

I have yet to see a bent usb c (not saying it couldn’t happen, but…

It’s have seen multiple crushed USB A connectors.

[lxgr]

Ah, I should have been more precise: The (technically out of spec) "half-A" plug used by e.g. Yubikeys and some low-profile USB drives seems near indestructible to me. Regular A plugs can definitely be crushed.

[TheKitchenSinc]

As some anecdata, I work in facilities with hundreds of non-tech folks using USB-C Yubikeys and we see multiple bent connectors daily. Granted, our userbase isn’t known for treating electronics kindly…

[cwbriscoe]

Both my wireless keyboard and mouse are USB-C. I use the C connection for charging them.

[vladvasiliu]

My wireless mouse has a usb-c port for charging only (doesn't have a wired mode). But its dongle is usb-a only and no adapter was provided. It's a rather recent and "high-end" model, too: an mx master 3s.

[hhh]

I understand your point, but keyboards and mice aren’t the correct target I feel. I haven’t had a non USB-C peripheral in at least 4 years.

[makeitdouble]

> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug..

I can confirm, it's a journey. It's the same kind of journey than finding a hair trimmer that charges on USB C.

I see it more as makers being complacent and not giving a fuck though. There's no technical reasons for those to be USB A, and the USB C ones work great.

So yes USB A will be there for a while, and more often than not it's a symbolic middle finger to the buyer, a signal that a product should probably be avoided.

[cesarb]

> There's no technical reasons for those to be USB A, and the USB C ones work great.

There's a good technical reason for keyboards and mice to still be USB A: adapters from USB A socket to USB C plug are allowed by the standard, but adapters from USB C socket to USB A plug are forbidden (because they would, together with a common USB C cable, allow creating the forbidden USB A to USB A cable). This means that USB A keyboards and mice can be used in both USB A ports and (with a simple passive adapter) USB C ports, while USB C keyboards and mice could be used only on USB C ports.

Therefore, until having enough free USB C ports in computers is common enough, using USB A ports (with an optional adapter to USB C on the box) on the keyboard or mouse makes sense. This is similar to how, during the transition from serial and PS/2 mice to USB mice, it was common for them to come with a adapter which allowed them to be used either on a USB port or (with the adapter) on a PS/2 port.

[eurleif]

>because they would, together with a common USB C cable, allow creating the forbidden USB A to USB A cable

Not hard to do this regardless. Amazon sells A-to-A cables[0]; and Unicomp keyboards for example have a USB-A port in the back, and connect to PCs with a bundled A-to-A cable. Seems like preventing this is a lost cause.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-1-5ft-24AWG-Cable-Plated/dp...

[hughesjj]

I have more USB switches and kvms that do a-a instead of a-b than I care to admit

[silon42]

Yeah, USB switch for keyboard/mouse is the reason I expect to be using USB-A (or the "illegal" adapter) for few decades more.

[kalleboo]

On keyboard it's easy enough to just put a USB-C port on the keyboard and let users either use an A-C or C-C cable.

For mice, having a hardwired cable probably still makes sense in terms of bulk and strain relief, but I suspect that wireless mice are also far more common.

[TheRealPomax]

looks at his MIDI controller that comes with a USB-C female to USB-A male converter plug

You don't say...

[MadnessASAP]

Mmmmm forbidden cable....

[tazard]

A C-to-A adapter came with my laptop dock, but I have never thought of this

[clnq]

> USB A will be there for a while, and more often than not it's a symbolic middle finger to the buyer, a signal that a product should probably be avoided.

You have exceptionally strong opinions about USB A and C.

[makeitdouble]

Micro USB is the real bane of it, but the time I spent to find USB-C versions of so many devices, including mices, made the issue a lot more personal I think.

I kinda hate that we're stuck in dongle town for so long now. And going wireless brings in the charging issues. Computer makers are also to blame, but I think that ship has sailed.

[dec0dedab0de]

So yes USB A will be there for a while, and more often than not it's a symbolic middle finger to the buyer, a signal that a product should probably be avoided.

maybe it’s the opposite, it’s a warm hug reassuring you that they’re not going to change things just because some of the cool kids are.

[dylan604]

> There's no technical reasons for those to be USB A, and the USB C ones work great

Except that all of their plans already have USB A in them. They'd have to rework the plans. Then, rework the lines making them. Then they'd have 2 versions for a period of time. Someone in accounting and logistics would have to do more work.

Seems like a perfect time to bring that conversation to a halt with the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" line.

[jltsiren]

Different industries move at a different pace.

Many common power plugs were standardized 50-100 years ago. Compared to them, even USB-A is still new. If all you need is power delivery, there is little reason to switch to yet another plug type, which only exists because of unrelated requirements in other industries.

[michaelmrose]

At introduction there were billions of USB A peripherals and few users with USB C ports. The only sane thing for peripherals to do is ship USB A not wanting to cut out 99% of the market and the only sane thing given that for PCs to do is ship mostly USB A ports. So we start with an obvious optimal choice on all parties parts right now how do we break out of a trivial equilibrium into a mostly USB C universe?

If a PC ships with mostly USB C ports. Well since the majority of accessories are A users are going to be frustrated when they need adapters/a hub to plug in anything because they don't have enough of the ports accessories actually use.

If accessories shift first then users are going to be frustrated when they need adapters or a hub to have enough ports to plug in their accessories.

Remember that the average user keeps a computer for 6 years and they keep accessories longer often throwing things out when they literally stop working or can't be made to work with their new device.

Furthermore even a slight increase in costs is problematic when you margins are fairly razor thing. It's a really hard sell for anyone to move forward.

Apple has a substantial advantage here wherein they have enough good will from their users, enough margin, and enough sway to simply upgrade and tell their users to buy adapters while neither losing profit nor users.

That being said being A is hardly a middle finger for the vast majority of devices which need neither more power/more speed than usb 3.2 2x1 can provide as we are talking about 10Gbps and 15W. The most common accessories are mouse,keyboard,sound,cameras,small storage, less commonly network adapters

We haven't yet found a compelling case for a beefy connection but surely there is right.

High end video capture, high end storage, displays, hubs that serve many fast devices, 10Gbps Ethernet.

None as common as the previously listed and not fun to get working when not every port supports high power, higher speed, or optional features nor every cord. Using such features feels like the plug and pray of the early 90s whereas plugging in a DisplayPort monitor or a standard stereo jack speaker system is as boring as plugging in a toaster.

[Max-q]

> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug.

Not the author, but all my Logitech keyboards have USB-C.

[Kuraj]

Yet on the opposite side we are still buying USB A peripherals _because_ we do not have USB C ports everywhere.

[MR4D]

> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. it’s possible, but not easy.

So let’s see . . . I have the following in my house, most are at least 2 years old and all are USB-C :

MacBook Air

MX3 mouse

Keychron keyboard

iPhone 15

iPad Air

Xbox controllers (several)

LG 4K monitor

Racer Headphones

Rode VideoMic Go II

Pebble V2 speakers

GoPro 11

Chromebook laptop

[glennpratt]

The dirt cheap mechanical keyboard I just bought is USB-C. Which was great, because I didn't need an adapter.

[lloeki]

> calling USB A “legacy” and a “relic” is so misplaced. we all still own USB A devices.

All my client devices have detachable cables. All my host devices are USB-C and have been for a while, except for a) Xbox, b) RPis, c) Car.

a) I rarely plug anything into it except a dedicated charging cable or the odd Xbox-specialized devices.

b) for which client devices (if any) are never unplugged

c) A cable is plugged in and never leaves the port

For general-use client devices I either swapped cables for USB-C to uUSB-A or USB-B or had USB-C OOTB for recent devices, increasingly so on both ends.

I also recently moved from an iPhone 7 to an iPhone 13 Mini. If it wasn't for Apple refusing to do an iPhone 15 Mini I'd be USB-C all around.

> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB-C plug.

Accepted: I've had both for over a year: Keychron K2, Keychron M1. Logitech has a lot of devices with USB-C client side.

The irony is that one of them came with a USB-A (host side) to USB-C (client side) cable. The other one was C-C with a "upgrade your computer connector" C-A adapter†.

> Then in 5 years

Huh. I've been going all in on USB-C since 2018, my strategy being to pick the new standard through and through and backport/polyfill USB-C on the USB-A host side† as needed, NOT the other way around.

It's absolutely ridiculous that any off-the-self device today has anything else than a USB-C port client-side (which is where most of the mess actually is with all the mini x micro x hispeed x A x B x HDMI x DP connectors). I'm not throwing away any pre-C device or cable, I upgrade existing cables to be USB-C††. If a cable fails I get a C-whatever replacement.

As far as I'm concerned USB-A/B is a relic. Folks cling onto it like they clung to VGA (then, and now HDMI), floppy or optical drives.

† Upgrade the host port by leaving this permanently in the host device port: https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Adapter-Female-Converter-Charg...

†† Upgrade the cable by leaving this on the cable: https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Adapter-Thunderbolt-Compatible...

[smohare]

Almost all of the dozen keyboards I’ve bought on the last few years are USB-C.