[TheRoque]

Sorry for being such a newbie, but I never understood why HHKB was popular, and where it got its fame. I saw my roomate already having it 10 years ago, I find cool the minimalist aspect, but why such keyboard with basic design made it so far ?

Also, on a personal note, having a 65% keyboard now for 3 years, I'll go back to a 75% keyboard. I think functions keys and arrows are used way too frequently to spend your time using shortcuts. Also sometimes it becomes a hell of shortcuts in shortcuts.

[59nadir]

I've found that overwhelmingly it's brand perception, fashion and trends that build these situations more than anything else. Add to that the situation where people have spent hundreds of dollars on something and generally feel like they will have to justify it. It must be great, right? They spent hundreds of dollars, of course it's great!

I bought a mechanical keyboard (ErgoDox EZ) for more than $300 after import taxes and it wasn't remarkably better than anything else. I don't use it nowadays, I just use "classic" models from either Logitech or Microsoft (or even a lower-status brand) for the equivalent of ~$13-$17 a pop. I bought several at once but they've never broken so far so I just have a few in storage.

P.S. I had problems with wrist pain and stuff before I bought the ErgoDox which was one of the reasons I bought it. It only got worse after I started using it and the only thing that helped was voice coding and not using a keyboard for some time. After that I started using these bland, uninteresting keyboards and I've never really had the same issues again.

[TwoFerMaggie]

I think part of it is the switches. They use Topre capacitive switches which have a very distinct key feeling than your average mechanical switches made by Cherry (and its clones) or Alps.

RealForce (the keyboard brand from Topre) now have their own line of capacitive keyboards, but a while back HHKB was _the_ capacitive keyboard, or at least around the people I know.

Which makes it very interesting that this new model is using Cherry-type linear switches instead of Topre.

[khnorgaard]

It's mainly due to using topre switches but they also swap CAPSLOCK for CTRL by default (which used to be normal back in the day). For me, having gone through heaps of MX-based boards, I always return to topre. The typing experience is just superior IMHO. Unfortunately this new board uses MX type switches which to me is weird because it's their biggest differentiator and selling point.

[JohnBooty]

    having gone through heaps of MX-based 
    boards, I always return to topre

Have you compared/contrasted Topre switches vs. higher-end MX-compatible switches?

Actual CherryMX branded switches are not great in my experience. I find Gateron's factory-lubed MX compatible switches to be excellent, and they are considered (I think?) middle-tier.

But I have never tried "exotic" or "high-end" MX-compat switches, nor have I tried Topre. I would love a comparison.

[ch_123]

HHKB fan here. When using macOS or Linux, I basically never use the function keys, and I find the arrow key shortcuts pleasant to use because they do not require me to move my hands from the home row. Another factor is that I use vim (and VScode with vim bindings) so I use the arrow keys less than usual. Add to that the high build quality, light weight, high quality switches which are not too loud for an office environment, and they are one of my favourite keyboard designs.

I will say that under Windows, or when playing games, the layout becomes problematic... but I use another keyboard for gaming anyway. As always, YMMV.

[ndiddy]

One thing I like about the newer HHKB keyboards is that they're remappable, which somewhat addresses the Windows shortcomings. The remap tool is only officially supported on the more expensive wireless keyboard, but it works on the wired Classic model by editing the "KeyboardDatalist.json" file in the install directory and replacing all instances of "false" with "true". I mapped Fn+HJKL to the arrow keys, Fn+F to PgDn, Fn+B to PgUp, Fn+N to Home, and Fn+M to End.

[jwells89]

I’m in this boat too, although I don’t use VIM. On macOS where mnemonic key shortcuts are the norm, function key usage is low enough that them being layered isn’t an issue, and layered arrows are actually nice than dedicated once you’re used to them.

I have a few boards with the HHKB layout, only a couple of which are HHKBs. For me the layout is nearly perfect, just wish I could have it in my laptops too.

[layer8]

I got the original HHKB when it came out in 1996. The layout makes sense on Unix where function keys are not used much and you can use hjkl in Vim and in readline vi mode. The compact layout saves desk space and allows you to easily take the keyboard with you everywhere.

The HHKB was inspired by the original Macintosh keyboard which doesn't have arrow keys at all (not even via a Fn key): https://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_M0110

But I agree with your point about shortcuts, and I later switched to full-size ergonomic keyboards due to RSI and for Windows use, and now despise keys being relegated to Fn combinations.

[globular-toast]

I find it really funny how people refer to pressing two keys at the same time as "shortcuts". I never understood that. "Ctrl-C" isn't a "shortcut for copy" any more than pressing "C" is a "shortcut for typing the letter C".

I guess what you don't like is (excessive) key combos or "chords".

I've been using a 65% keyboard for a few years now and I don't miss the function keys one bit, but I do occasionally miss the arrow keys. A lot of UIs are built with the assumption that the arrow keys actually exist and aren't just "arrow commands" that might be bound to other key combos. It's just awkward then if they want you to press "Shift-Left", for example, which is I guess what you call "shortcuts in shortcuts".

[TheRoque]

It's a shortcut because it's an alternative (and faster) way to access a functionality. There's no other way to get the letter C than to press the C key on your keyboard, therefore it's not a shortcut. Saying that using the function key to access the arrow key is indeed not a shortcut, chord or combo would be more appropriate, but your "Ctrl + C" example was a bad one to take.

[globular-toast]

What other way is there to access "copy" (Ctrl-C)? I feel like this stems from the belief that the keyboard is secondary to the mouse. So the official way is to right click and select copy from the menu? When was the last time you actually saw someone do that?

You could go the other way and say all the letters on your keyboard are shortcuts for entering the characters specific to your language. After all, there are far more characters in unicode for all the languages in the world and there is no shortcut for those. In Emacs I could do absolutely everything via M-x commands, even typing: e.g. M-x "insert-char" "LATIN SMALL LETTER J".

OK, this is becoming a bit silly. My main point really was that by adopting a keyboard-driven workflow you no longer think of the keyboard as "shortcuts", it just becomes the way to do it and, yeah, I definitely think Ctrl-C counts as that.

[TheRoque]

Take a new software, like Blender or Gimp, and you'll totally have to do things "manually" via the menus before memorizing the "shortcuts" that will boost your productivity. It's nice for discoverability, accessibility, and probably necessary for most people (including me). I really don't see what's wrong in calling these shortcuts, if there's a longer, manual, tedious version, which has a shorter alternative. If you're a keyboard-driven person, I can get the idea, but you are being pedantic IMO...

[globular-toast]

Nobody has ever called me pedantic ;)

I get what you mean and I can see why they are referred to as "shortcuts". I just think it's a deficiency in UI design that leads to such a term. I have used software like Inkscape a lot and using it efficiently is a bit like playing guitar: one hand on the mouse, the other on the keyboard, working together. Discoverability is good (although I think massively overhyped) but a good UI should lead you to discover the most efficient way to do something, not the least efficient.

[nottheengineer]

They used to use topre switches which many people swear by and combined it with a modern design. Compared to the gaming keyboards with MX blues and the ultra-cheap rubberdome boards of the time, it was a great package so they gained popularity.

Not sure how they got traction at the start because the main selling point was the weird layout and they didn't have topre switches yet.

This one doesn't have topre either. It still sounds great, but if I wanted MX switches and a trackpoint, I'd go for a Tex shinobi. Shortcut hell is a problem indeed, I want to Alt+F4 with one hand and on a 60% that's impossible to implement without something like spaceFN, which again has to be turned off for gaming.

[eviks]

It doesn't make sense to lose the function keys, the more keys the better (though i'd argue that it's better for less frequently used functions where it's easier to remember spatial position while not wasting much by moving your hands), though for arrows it's definitely more comfortable to have home row arrow keys with some thumb prefix, you can even have up/downs by various distance (e.g., "jk" for arrow down/up, "m," for pageDown/Up, and maybe "ui" for some "up to home/down to end") so that your same down/up muscle memory in your same two fingers

[rgoulter]

> I think functions keys and arrows are used way too frequently to spend your time using shortcuts

65% keyboards tend to put those shortcuts where you have to use a pinky finger to access those keys.

Whereas, keyboards much smaller than ~60% tend to use thumbs instead to access those keys, and put a big emphasis on reducing movement from home row & bringing the full functionality of the keyboard to within reach of the hands there.

The keyboards which make more use of layers put the layer keys in a nicer spot than those 60% keyboards.

[mskalski]

> I saw my roomate already having it 10 years ago

and could use it to this day I guess. Like carpenter may use proven tools then you can be accustomed to the feeling and layout of the tool you use everyday. I still have my first hhkb which I bought almost 10 years ago, works like on day one, even I am usually using newer hhkb wireless model these days. If I am not mistaken before buying first model I read article about someone who had similar experience like I now.

[zoke]

The location of the Control key.

https://hhkeyboard.us/blog/the-mystery-behind-the-ctrl-key-a...