[cempaka]

An American friend of mine in his mid thirties developed cardiac issues after 3 doses of Moderna, but his doctors doggedly attribute it to his mild COVID case (and he is of course happy to believe that rather than that the damage may have been self-inflicted).

[kiltedpanda]

Would a peer reviewed study in the European Journal of Heart Failure finding 1 in 35 people suffered heart damage after a Moderna booster shot change his mind?

https://farmersforum.com/one-in-35-people-suffered-heart-dam...

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejhf.2978

[giantg2]

That's a major problem. Anything that could possibly be caused by the vaccine, or has an unknown cause, should be reported. You want the raw data without the biases of doctors guessing if something is related or not. Then the data scientists and researchers can clean the data.

[waterhouse]

Indeed. The extreme version would be to collect data about "all problems, period", and compare the rates of "people who got the vaccine in the last N weeks" against a control group. Like looking at "excess deaths" to estimate the deaths caused by COVID. Picking the right control group might be tricky, though...

[giantg2]

Yeah, I looked at doing some analysis for a vaccine related injury. There aren't really any control groups for the mandatory vaccines. The best you can do is try to time box it like you're talking about. Even using groups that may not vaccinate (certain religious sects usually) may have issues with the sampling not being random due to genetics and demographics in those communities.

I wanted to do the time boxing like you suggest, but access to anonymous records with that level of detail and with a sufficient size is not easy to come by (as a lay person for free at least).

[bigtex]

Vaccines are safer than water!

[ben_w]

I doubt any medical doctor has claimed that.

Heck, I doubt any have even said that an injection of saline solution is as safe as normal water consumption.

[giantg2]

You might be surprised. I've heard a doctor I know personally who is so pro vaccine that they have stated they are absolutely safe (not generally safe) and they wish they could secretly give the vaccine (specifically covid) to kids who's parents decline.

[ben_w]

Have you tried prompting them differently? People are a bit like chatGPT and anchor weirdly.

My reason for phrasing the earlier comment that way, and also my guess for that doctors thought process, is that asking the relative risks per million of a saline injection and only when you get that answer following up by asking if any other injection is safer, would get you there, unless they were currently thinking about all the antivax conspiracies, and there's still a chance that just asking about saline injection would cause that thought process directly.

[giantg2]

True, this was unprompted and offered up voluntarily.

[kiltedpanda]

Yeah this whole thing really brought out the inner SS in some people.

[ben_w]

Only in the parallel reality where the SS was famous for trying to prevent a transmissible illness. Given our reality is one where the SS were racist paramilitaries that industrialised homicide, you seem to be regurgitating from the "everyone I disagree with is literally hitler" school of rhetoric.

[cempaka]

There was no "trying to prevent a transmissible illness" once the CDC's Provincetown study made it clear in late July 2021 that the vaccines didn't prevent transmission. After that point, it was purely enforcing a purity ritual and loyalty test on people, and was even couched in those terms: "we're not accepting the refusal of this undertested therapeutic from those anti-social anti-vaxxers!"