Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by mog_dev 953 days ago
I don't understand how people can accept the browser hiding the URL.
8 comments

People with technical skills can't accept that, but the ones without them that make up the majority couldn't care less. The vast majority of people don't know how to read or utilize anything past the domain name, hence why you constantly see people copy paste 300 characters long URLs of images from Google. Hell, a good amount of people don't even look at the domain name which is why phishing is so common.
URLs are not strictly technological oddities. Their closest equivalents are footnotes/citations.

Marginalizing URLs as something that only "people with technical skills" do (and/or should?) care about is no different from any other phenomenon where you take some boring, everyday, mostly unremarkable practice that doesn't involve the use of a computer and then change it where the moment someone gets a whiff of the presence of a computer in the pipeline they throw up their hands and say, "I don't know"/"I don't get this"/"I'm not a computer person".

It's really the doing of both non-technical people and technical people in and adjacent to the modern software industry alike that most people consider URLs gobbledygook instead of what they are: identifiers for a given work. It's especially perverse that the practices of both classes are responsible for most URLs being unsuitable for use Works Cited pages. That could definitely use some fixing, but we do such a poor job (in the US at least) already at explaining, during high school when it's supposed to be covered, the value of proper sourcing and citing that even smart kids come away thinking in terms of superficialities like the rigidity of formats and citation style rather than the actual fundamentals of scholarship. URLs are not exceptional in that regard.

Then browsers should make the url more visible and distinctive. Colorize URL elements, etc.
For what purpose?
Firefox seems to always display the url after the protocol, even on mobile. I don't like the protocol omission, but I've grown to tolerate it.
Meh, everything's converged on https now, unless you're loading from file (in which case you probably know already). With any other scheme, the browser is going to pop up a massive DANGER WILL ROBINSON that you have to click through.

The scheme is rather pointless to display in a browser bar nowadays.

Having a separate scheme for HTTPS was a mistake anyway. TLS should be a transport detail that doesn't change the URL at all just like DNSSEC, IPv6 and QUIC don't change the URL. The browser can still display the negotiated encryption and you need HSTS anyway to fully protect against downgrade attacks - and as older ciphers are broken even that is not going to be enough.
I agree 1000%.
Or mayhap, been forced to tolerate it? By UI freakazoids?

(A scream goes out)Function before form, always!

People without a technical background could accept a browser that doesn't display an URL at all. Just put a nice big Button with the Google-Logo somewhere, which for many people is "The internet" and they are happy.

And anyone claiming otherwise should riddle me this: How do most non-technical people in the world access "awesomepageireallylike.something"? That's right, they click into the address bar, start typing until the string they remebered appears, and then click on that. And what is that? Exactly: A Google search.

URL is a central concept in web browsing. Hiding it from users goes against the main usability principle that the user should understand what's going on.

One does not need a technical background to understand URLs.

Browser hiding URLs is like an OS hiding file system structure from users, because files and directories are "too technioal" for them.

> that the user should understand what's going on

Sure he should. But design maxime of a lot of contemporary software does exactly the opposite: Hiding as much of the "icky techy stuff" from the user as possible.

> One does not need a technical background to understand URLs.

That's true, but doesn't change the fact that most people don't. For example, how many people know that the domain of an URL is organised right-to-left? I met people in tech, including programmers, who never figured that out.

> Browser hiding URLs is like an OS hiding file system structure from users, because files and directories are "too technioal" for them.

I agree. And now open a contemporary smart phone interface, and show me, without any special tooling, the actual, "physical" file system. And these things are probably the most successful consumer computing platforms ever.

> And now open a contemporary smart phone interface, and show me, without any special tooling, the actual, "physical" file system.

Yes, I had phones in mind when writting the above :)

> And these things are probably the most successful consumer computing platforms ever.

Users don't have better choice in this market.

Why do you think Apple and Google hide the file system in their mobile OSes? Just for fun?..
I could name several hypotheses, but I don't know exactly.

What I am certain of, is that it's very inconvenient to not have access to file systems.

I don't think that takes like this one that yes-and URLs as a narrowly technological concern help anything. I'd argue it actually does more harm than good.

> URL is a central concept in web browsing.

Two responses, depending on one's mood:

1. So?

2. Resource identifiers—which URLs are—are a central concept to information science, scholarship, and society and culture.

Aside from the (admittedly often irrational) tendency of some non-technical people to strike a pose of helplessness,* you also end up with technical people making comments like this one: generally taking the stance that it's not too hard to pick this stuff up, with the goal that non-technical people will end up with an appreciation/conception of a URL's technological bones that at least approximately matches the informed mental model of the technical person who is speaking—and who themselves doesn't stop to consider what they themselves have got wrong and are possibly continuing to do wrong by society wrt their role in (negatively) shaping the information architecture of the world around them.

* See <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38277553>

IPs are a central concept as well but nobody advocates for making them more visible (and colorized, etc) to users.

> Hiding it from users goes against the main usability principle that the user should understand what's going on.

The main usability principle is that the user should understand what matters for them. Seeing the path of the URL is completely useless to 99% of web browsing. Better hide it by default and let power users see it if they want.

> Browser hiding URLs is like an OS hiding file system structure from users, because files and directories are "too technioal" for them.

Yes, well, this is how mobile OSs behave and most people don't seem to care or even notice...

Sharing URLs is a fundamental operation.

Without a URL, you can't text someone a webpage, refer to it in a social media post or a tweet, or link to it in a document. You can't make links.

Sure, you can browse the web without it. But you can't use any of our everyday basic tools for sharing and content creation without it.

Phones have small screens, and most browsers only show the URL on demand when you do a gesture. Also, you generally can't fit the whole URL while in landscape on a phone. You need to scroll it sideways if you want to find something in it.

I don't think we can expect URLs to be read in full by people on phones :(.

On demand is ok. But there should be an easy and convenient way to see.

> You need to scroll it sideways if you want to find something in it.

> I don't think we can expect URLs to be read in full by people on phones :(.

That's because it's implemented inconveniently, a single line. When user taps the address bar, the browser could expand it into an URL editor, conveniently wrapping lines by url parameter boundaries, etc

I don’t think it is even possible to display the full URL by default in Safari on iOS.
I don’t know which model you have, but on mine you wouldn’t even have the space to display more than a 5-6 characters after the domain name.
Funnily, the post's example.of https://jvns.ca/blog/2023/02/28/some-notes-on-using-nix/ means I can see clearly the date and nothing more in my Firefox/Android URL bar
I don't like what Google's trying to do, but I don't think the address bar is good at of the roles it currently sits in (establishing trust, encoding state), and stands in the way of attempting new modes.
Why? Most urls nowadays are unreadable and nonsensical anyway. The only thing that really matters is the domain, and that’s displayed for you in a (hopefully) better way than many users would be able to parse themselves.

Of course, you should always have the option to see the full URL, but why exactly do you need that clutter on display the whole time? It’s like complaining that the browser renders HTML instead of printing it all as unformatted text.

I don't see the address of buildings I'm in even when I stand in front of it on the street.
True, and isn't the web amazing? If your website is nice, you always know exactly where you are by looking up! If only our buildings were this nice...

But seriously, what are you trying to say, that we need to make software match our contemporary physical experience? No, we can do better.