[gv83]

since "plumbing" is an essential part of *every* application, I'd rather not focus on it all the time.

I maintained both kinds of framework-heavy and "organic home grown just libraries" apps, and you know what? I totally prefer framework heavy stuff; at least it has battle tested facilities for everything, and I can expect consistency instead of fomo-driven/resume-driven development.

my last homegrown framework was a nasty 60k LoC api that did like 10 operations. total business logic was 3000 lines, including fn declarations and docs. just transaction scripts. the remaining 57k were a gargantuan amount of boilerplate that gave absolutely nothing to the project, and all in "typed python" which is like 0.9x java verbosity. a massive piece of shit.

[berkes]

> I'd rather not focus on it all the time.

Me neither. Which is why I want it tucked away and out of sight and out of thought.

My app is about Medicine, or Projects, or Coffee, or Orders. Not about Controllers, Models, HTTP and DatabaseLayers. Hence I don't want to work day in day out in this plumbing but rather in my domain¹.

Also, there's this false dichotomy, where "no framework === diy mess" That's nonsense. It's perfectly possible to create a well architectured, clean, maintainable and scalable system without the constraints of a framework. You don't need to write your own HTTP handling or database layers if you forego a frameworks: it's what libraries are for. Or microframeworks. Or both.

¹ Here Uncle Bob Martin explains that much better than I ever could: https://youtu.be/sn0aFEMVTpA?si=mY8S1r6qqp8LWEVF&t=4517

[gv83]

either you're very lucky or I've been very unlucky with our respective teams, as yes, it is perfectly possible to create a decent application without frameworks, but it's also incredibly unlikely, given that the average coder is incredibly mediocre at best and often does not even know basic engineering practices ~ i.e. see the success of function-signature-stealing-decorator-heavy web frameworks in py; that alone makes impossible to use constructor injection without "advanced" concepts like closures, but who cares, just instance from inside the controller and monkeypatch!!!1oneone

If the team is VERY skilled, VERY small and VERY able to keep the culture going forward indefinitely I'm all in for the homegrown framework; if not, I'd rather have a set of well done facilities that accrued many years of manhours i.e. cli commands out of the box, testing framework already well configured with decent standars like tx-wrapped tests, and so on, decent security, admin panels...

it's not a technical matter, it's a social matter. social matters are more important than technical ones.