[MrJohz]

Are people really struggling at that level, though? It has never been easier to write a complex page with minimal Javascript - there are more and more HTML elements that do what you expect (expandos and modals as some recent examples), Javascript is cleaner and more consistent across browsers (you really don't need jQuery anymore), and CSS is more powerful but also so much simpler (flex+grid solve so many problems).

Then if that's not enough, you've got things like HTMX if you're keen on doing everything in terms of html templating, you've got tools like Svelte if you want an isolated chunk of dynamic UI in a mostly static page, you've got bundlers like Vite that just work without any configuration if you get to the point where you need a build step, and you've got a multitude of lightweight frameworks for the next step.

And on top of that, pretty much all the old ways still work. The browser is an incredibly stable environment! Outside of a handful of security-related removals, if it got into a mainstream browser, without a feature flag or an explicit "experimental" warning, it's pretty much there for life. So if you want to go back to the old ways, there's not much stopping you - but a whole bunch of quality-of-life development improvements along the way to make things even easier than they were back then.

[marcus_holmes]

Find a professional front-end developer who is willing to use simple HTML, JS & CSS and I'd agree with you.

It's almost impossible. The first reaction is always `npm init`

[MrJohz]

Most professional frontend developers are working on projects that require something more complicated than just the basics, because, well, that's where the complexity lies, and so that's where the work is.

You can still find developers who are using the basics, but mostly they're designing WordPress themes or working for boutique web design agencies, because those are the sorts of problems that are solved with just simple HTML, JS, and CSS.

It's like asking a Java developer when the last time they developed something without maven or gradle is, or Python developer why their first reaction is to use pip. If the majority of problems developers had to solve were simple enough that they didn't need these tools, then there'd be far fewer developers and most of them would still end up working on the 20% of projects where they're necessary. Because, well, that's where the complexity lies.

[azangru]

> Find a professional front-end developer who is willing to use simple HTML, JS & CSS and I'd agree with you.

> It's almost impossible. The first reaction is always `npm init`

Consider a simple case — a static website containing several pages (it's simpler than anything requiring a dynamic server, right?). If you are a professional front-end developer, you are almost certain to prefer some kind of a static-site generator over copy-pasting the html template with repeated elements (header, footer, navigation) multiple times, because you know that copy-pasting will bite you when you need to change something. You could use a static-site generator written in Ruby (but then you would gem install), or in Python (but then you would pip install); or you could use a Hugo binary (I'd love to see anyone call its templating language simple); or, if you are a front-end developer, you might npm init && npm install eleventy. Is this too complex a step?

[marcus_holmes]

> or you could use a Hugo binary (I'd love to see anyone call its templating language simple)

I dunno, I'm a Go dev, so it makes sense to me ;)

> Is this too complex a step?

If it just stopped there, sure, that would be fine. But it never does. My experience of front-end devs is that they will do anything to avoid writing any actual code. So there's a tendency to pull in dependencies and bloat the thing until it suffocates in its own complexity. I've seen node_modules with thousands of subdirs, and a build process that takes minutes, for really very simple sites.

[andybak]

Sounds like we're agreeing with each other and disagreeing with the big SPA framework guy?

[MrJohz]

I mean, I am a big SPA framework guy. That's pretty much the main thing I use, day-in, day-out, because most of the projects I'm working on are complex enough that simply hand-coding the entire UI will not work.

And, while only a minority of projects are that complex, those projects are the ones most developers are working on. Most other projects are probably better served with a wordpress install and a bit of theme customisation. Which means it's going to be a minority of developers who work with the very minimal things that are sufficient in these sorts of cases.

[kugelblitz]

Are you writing that complex projects need SPA, everything else is better served with Wordpress?

I've used SPA frameworks, but try to avoid it if I can, because most of the logic is in the backend. I don't want to create and sync API interfaces, have 1-2 additional contexts (JS + frontend framework) and debug an extra layer.

With htmx I can now have interactivity via the backend. I use Alpine.js for some interactivity.