[SV_BubbleTime]

The process of mining, to ore, to refining to sponge to billet or extrusion is not something you are going to do in your garage.

If we JUST look at aluminum… it’s mined in places like Australia, Chinese companies then ship it to Iceland for refining on tankers because of cheap electricity, then back across the world to china where it made into powder/sponge at basically one Chinese city, where then it may be turned into billet, shipped across ocean again to USA maybe through Panama to the east coast where a company gets it in, then CNC machines it into some low tier product that is destined for a landfill but markets it as a made in USA widget.

Between the fact that this metal was handled and shipped across the world two or three times… the regulation and necessarily environmentally dirty processes are just not happening in the USA. We have regulated ourselves into the most unearned environmentally “conscious” position.

The fact that we have people controlling narrative about climate change and they aren’t pushing to deregulate in order to move production away from China is all anyone with experience in manufacturing needs to know on this “debate”.

You let me know when “Greta” Co is pushing to make the world less reliant on China in order to not just mask the environmental costs of production.

[happyjack]

Your comment is the best and most realistic one on this thread.

There's so many people on this website sitting behind Chinese made computers spitting bullshit on "well if we could just get those container ships to pull some solar panels to then grow corn onboard and create a micro climate and process ethanol for said ship, then this whole process would be negligible and carbon neutral and not matter." Give me a fucking break. The world economy is based on exploitation and consumption. There is no "carbon neutral" consumption. There is no getting rich on a USA 1800s type agrarian low human footprint economy.

Like your correct comment indicates, the fact is the global economy is logistically insanely complex, politically complex, and mostly exists for pure consumption and waste. The Greta's are making "moral" arguments and brain washing the first world in order to ship production of "dirty" industries to china, LATAM, and Russia. They are wall streets biggest lobbyists!

[SV_BubbleTime]

I have 20 years experience actually making things. I have seen the UAW in Detroit, I’ve worked in education and tech… I’ve seen how the sausage is made, so it is infuriating when HN-types, or progressives, or anyone really start on about “well, what we need to do is” if they have never actually made a thing in their lives… well; I guess I value the “I’m just talking to talk” flag… and what an amazing coincide “the solution” is to tax me more! Everytime, what are the odds!? :)

[gtech1]

I know fuck all, but maybe what you know is to do things a certain way.

I'm guessing you could have worked at any car manufacturer 15 years ago and would have said electrical cars are a fantasy. Yet someone came along and disrupted your entire world.

[SV_BubbleTime]

I’ve worked in automotive for more than 15 years.

Electric cars aren’t ready for anything but around town. Which they are great at. I’m looking at 2030 model plans - and spoiler alert - they’re gas and diesel. Although I can tell you particulate filters are coming for pertol, that is the next big change, but other than that until you change physics or make drastically better batteries, gas cars aren’t going anywhere

[ricardobeat]

You just proved the parent’s point.

Greetings from the Netherlands where EV sales share is hitting 50%!

[happyjack]

Just because the morons in your home country are buying shit mobiles to drive 1 km a day to and from work (or whatever stupid units you use) is not an indicator for the world at large. 2030 is gas and diesel cars! Just like how 80% of our power is still going to be hydrocarbons in 2030. Read all the fantasy you want; physics and thermodynamics do not change. If the world does not split atoms in a large scale we will burn coal or natural gas.

My comments along with SV's comments is how ignorant most people are to how things are made and done, because the majority of the folks on sites like this type code for a living and argue things for arguments sake, and don't actually make real, tangible things.

[ben_w]

> There is no "carbon neutral" consumption

What is, is not all that can ever be.

[ricardobeat]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1027795/europe-primary-a....

[SV_BubbleTime]

While I’m sure you think that is a gotcha… Alumina is not the same as Aluminum, but I count them as the same thing for the purpose of creating aluninum. Clearly not everyone does.

Find a chart that shows Russia making more alumina that anyone, you won’t find it. Best case, you’ll find Iceland making it, but the unwritten subtext will be Chinese factories and loaded on to Chinese ships.

[ben_w]

> necessarily environmentally dirty processes

Increasing false, as demonstrated by groups like this: https://metalysis.com/

[SV_BubbleTime]

Lots of things are “proven” false by groups that don’t do things at global scale.

Maybe it’s possible to do cleanly, that isn’t the reality.

[ben_w]

Not with that attitude. These things move a bit at a time, as factories are built or upgraded and even then only in response to legal obligations or sales pitches. The state of the art in research is basically always ahead of what can be bought, and what can be bought is always ahead of the median that has already been built.