[savanaly]

> Your users don't care how clean your source code is

They do care about bugs and new features though, and bad code quality will lead you to more bugs and slower shipping of features in the medium/long run. At least, that's how I define good code.

[imtringued]

I have seen people strive for cleanliness from the get go, but that has resulted in garbage outcomes and overabstraction.

The customers are unhappy. I am unhappy. Everyone is unhappy.

I prefer "messy" simple code that works and is easy to understand. Yeah sure I put too much logic into the controller. I could put it into a dozen different files. Fight me.

[eichin]

yeah, the number of times I've cleaned up some code because it was "just wrong" and as part of making sure it had test coverage for visible impact, identified a "oh, this has been flaky at a customer site for years, but noone had a good angle on it"...

That's also pretty much the only hope of getting product buy-in on this kind of thing, showing that "no really, there was this particular customer impact". Or "by doing this upgrade in a timely manner, we're not screwed by no longer being able to buy old hardware because new kernels/libraries support the modern replacements"...