[trident5000]

Nicotine is just terrible for you. Smoking is linked to alzheimers and I watched my grandfather smoke his pipe and decline cognitively with that disease. Im not sure if its only proven from the toxins in smoke or the nicotine but I would assume constricting the blood vessels (with nicotine) leads to plaque buildup in the body and brain.

Because of the vessel constriction is stops healing in the body as well all the way to your bones dealing with microfractures and remodeling.

That said, Ill have the occasional cigar.

[goodluckchuck]

You mean smoking is terrible for you. As the cited studies indicate, nicotine itself (delivered by patched / gum) is fairly harmless. Not completely risk free, but nothing at all like smoking.

[steeleyespan]

There's some studies suggesting nordic Snus (like all natural chew w/o chemicals added) is fairly harmless. Anecdotally I've read people highly addicted to it, so very suspicious of any claim that nicotine itself isn't addictive and just smoking is.

[Findecanor]

Snus is quite common in my country, Sweden. Many users are former smokers who "quit" by using snus instead as their source of nicotine. Users I know have said that they feel that it is highly addictive.

Studies of snus users have indicated increased risks of cancer in the mouth, throat and gastrointestinal system but have not been conclusive as to how. There's also a newer type of snus not made from tobacco, with pure nicotine as a separate ingredient, but it has been studied much less.

Nicotine is still widely considered harmful for the cardiovascular system though. I've had two surgeries this past year and been told to not even chew nicotine gum for a week before because of how nicotine in my system could lead to complications.

[steeleyespan]

It appears there are some conflicting studies, like with everything.

My best interpretation is that nicotine itself probably isn't the-worst-thing-ever if it was restricted to occasional usage, like having a beer on the weekend.

It's probably not a good idea to make a habit of though like with coffee.

There's a theory floating around that it may help with long-Covid symptoms, but there's not a lot of evidence. This may be in part due to the general opposition towards tobacco as extremely unhealthy.

I only heard of this because a neighbor says using nicotine gum restored her sense of smell.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9845100/

Again, anecdotally I had a relative, very heavy smoker, who got Delta and had very mild symptoms. She's 80 and in pretty poor health. Others younger in the same household had it much worse.

https://aacijournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1322...

[goodluckchuck]

That computes with this article which discusses the addictiveness of naturally occurring MAOIs found in organic tobacco.

[abecedarius]

Does snus have much flavor? I've wondered if the psychological part of nicotine addiction is much stronger when there's a smell/taste association with the drug effect. (I'm not a smoker, just seen a couple hints suggesting this.)

[jddj]

It does. It has a slight burning sensation on the gum (salt?) and has an earthy / spiced flavour.

You don't taste it much unless you consume beer/coffee/water at the same, but if so the right brands and combinations can be quite pleasant.

They also make menthol ones.

[abecedarius]

Thanks, that updates me a bit more towards that hypothesis. I tried to search once for whether unflavored vaping was better than flavored for quitting smoking, but didn't find anything relevant at least back then.

[trident5000]

No, I mean nicotine as I clearly indicated in my comment. It's not harmless and its ridiculous to think a drug that constricts the vessels and blood flow in your body would be so.

[lcnPylGDnU4H9OF]

> its ridiculous to think a drug that constricts the vessels and blood flow in your body would be [harmless]

Without knowing more about human physiology, this physiological description is a boogeyman. Someone could describe the physiological effects of eating lettuce while making the same claim about said effect and it would be obvious to a layperson as nonsense only because they know the topic. It’s not ridiculous to think this is possibly harmless in certain contexts.

[insanitybit]

> It's not harmless and its ridiculous to think a drug that constricts the vessels and blood flow in your body would be so.

Why? Because it increases blood pressure?

That's a problem if it's chronic and severe, afaik a milk vasoconstrictive effect isn't going to kill you.

[mijoharas]

Like caffeine?

[otabdeveloper4]

Good thing I don't drink coffee.

[trident5000]

Is that a counterpoint? Pointing to something unrelated from the conversation. Maybe both arnt great for you?

[hatsix]

it's a great counterpoint, because they're is a lot of literature on the health effects of caffeine.

> Maybe both aren't great for you?

Maybe? You are the one making strong assertions about vasoconstrictors. Maybe you should take this opportunity to challenge your beliefs on this by digging into scientific literature.

Also, "aren't great" is such a softening of your original opinion "just terrible". Why argue for your ignorance when there is actual scientific literature?

[carlmr]

Isn't caffeine a vasoconstrictor as well? Wouldn't that make coffee a silent killer?

[vik0]

I don't get how so many people like coffee. I've tried it maybe a handful of times in my life, getting the type that my friends said is great, and I've always found it to be reminiscent of dirty water, that is, water that has been contaminated with dirt.

Why do so many people like it?

My friends say they like the taste, but I don't believe them. I think it has to do with them being coerced into liking coffee at a young age, and now they're addicted to it because of its caffeine content.

I come from a country (Macedonia, ruled over by the Ottomans for more than 500 years. The Ottomans liked their coffee) where every going out with friends is centered around coffee. So when people want to hang out, they never, ever, say stuff like "Hey, let's hang out", but always "Let's drink coffee" (I understand people in the civilized world, people say stuff like this too to hang out with friends, particularly in America (I'm not familiar with Western Europe as I haven't lived there, though I assume its similar to the US), but not like they do here, and the surrounding regions.)

And when you do go out to hang out casually with friends, it's always to a fucking cafe because they want to get their daily dose of caffeine in, because they're totally not addicted to it.

(The overwhelming majority of people here go to cafes every day to drink coffee with their friends, who also drink coffee. It's become something like a ritual for them at this point.)

When I hang out with my friends in a cafe, naturally as their sacred ritual insists, and I order anything other than coffee, which I always do, other than those 2 times, they look at me like I've just committed the mother of all sins.

I apologize for my off-topic rant, but I had to get it off my chest.

[pasquinelli]

i can't taste cardamom. when i taste freshly ground cardamom it's like eting a pinch of sand.

maybe you have something like that going on with coffee.

i'll say i had no interest in coffee until i tried it in my early 30's and really enjoyed it, though i found the caffine too strong. now i drink it every day (smaller cups though.) point being, i wasn't made to like coffee at a young age, and i've liked it ever since i started drinking it.

[laurentlassalle]

> My friends say they like the taste, but I don't believe them. I think it has to do with them being coerced into liking coffee at a young age, and now they're addicted to it because of its caffeine content.

Daily coffee drinker here. Maybe I'm in the minority but I really enjoy the taste (strong espresso without sugar/milk) and really dislike the caffeine content (always prefer decaf, if available).

[jrmg]

Also a daily coffee drinker.

I have a theory that humans like _complexity_. I’m pretty sure I didn’t originally like coffee (or e.g. scotch), but I do now because part of my brain really enjoys analyzing the flavor.

It’s a different enjoyment than e.g. donuts or bananas, which just ‘taste good’. Coffee (and whisky) ‘tastes interesting’ to a degree that overcomes the initial harshness.

So GP is sort of correct for the most basic interpretation. They’re just not appreciating that enjoyment and liking are not always straightforward.

[aappleby]

Coffee is delicious and worsens my arthritis. I drink a coffee substitute called Dandy Blend most days, but damn do I miss the real stuff.

[trident5000]

Theres a lot of people who are dumping caffeine for all sorts of reasons. Caffeine does indeed constrict blood vessels and thats probably not great tbh. But people (including myself) love their cup of coffee.

[rtpg]

Like… people do get addicted to caffeine right? I know people who drink a very large amount of coffee, who “can’t function” without it, and who generally seem to be in a pretty bad shape.

The behavior of a certain segment of the population with regard to coffee looks a hell of a lot like the stereotypical addictions to drugs, including just ending up in bad shape. Totally anecdotal of course but “caffeine in large amounts bad” aligns with a lot of human behavior.

[radicaldreamer]

Coffee is linked with significant health benefits for most people, but it isn’t the caffeine that responsible.

Coffee has a significant amount of antioxidants and Is the most significant source of antioxidants for many people. Even decaf coffee has health benefits.

[dist-epoch]

Caffeine physiological addiction is very light. Withdrawal symptoms last about 2 days and are mild.

> including just ending up in bad shape

Not sure what you mean by that, I'm not aware of people ending up on the streets because of caffeine.

[andygeorge]

street price of coffee is a little lower than other drugs

[goda90]

Maybe it is? It's really hard to know what things will cause damage over decades.