[infecto]

Not here defending SpaceX, cannot speak for some of the specific cases like the individual who was sitting on top of a truck to hold a load down. What I don't like though is the lack of real comparison. It reads more like a hit piece against spacex with all the specific examples of cases that tug at the heart. Would like to see some better comparison, I don't know how realistic the space industry average is. How many companies are in the space industry.

The BLS total recordable cases for all US report in 2022 (cases involving days away from work and other) is 2.7 per 100. Would have liked the article to dive more into the data details instead of the specific cases. Too easy to focus on specific cases and ignore what the data means. I am not sure if comparing this to other space industry companies is fair. I have no idea who is included but are the engineers on a team included in these worker counts? So my best comparison is the total rate listed by BLS which is 2.7/100.

[proteal]

I used to do workers comp insurance (which covers against the injuries in the article) and 600 injuries over almost 10 years sounds relatively in line with my expectations of a construction/prototyping firm. It sounds like the journalist got a leaked copy of the SpaceX loss runs. They tend to make the accidents sound more gruesome than they really are. If you get a papercut and report it, that shows up as a laceration on the sheet. Not saying there aren’t bad claims (amputation and death are never good!), but it’s very easy to make a company look bad even if they have good risk control.

I’m not denying that there probably were gaps in personal safety, but my guess is the risk manager has improved process. If this weren’t the case, no one would sell them workers comp insurance. I agree this looks like a hit piece.

[hef19898]

Ultimately, a worker sitting on top of a truck to hold down a load, is a failure of the company: rules and trainings have to be implace to avoid this unsafe behavior, managers, and ultimately the CEO, has to enforce those rules. If that doesn't happen an unsafe culture is promoted, one that leads to accidents.

[infecto]

Right, but this piece did not focus on the data and instead of pulled specific examples out. I think it would have been more convincing to at least speak more on the numbers, compare it to the US averages and look at different industries within the US. If I take the BLS average of missed days and other, 2.7 is higher then what I think is the 2.2 average that spacex has across different sites. I am not saying that means SpaceX is a safe place to work but we should dive into those details more to get a better picture.

Worker deaths will always exist, sometimes due to unsafe practices and sometimes the fault of the worker. Every 101minutes a worker dies in the US. This is why OSHA exists.

[scarab92]

Journalists do seem to be given an extraordinarily wide allowance for selection bias.

Most negative stories about SpaceX / Tesla / Twitter could have been written about any of their competitors in the just by changing a few details.

[hef19898]

Not when it comes to workplace saftey or going to war over some collective bargaining in Sweden, then not.

And Twitter, well, there are hardly any comparisons, are there?

[pauldenton]

Is SpaceX charging the DoD 435$ for a Hammer, or 600$ for a toilet seat? General Dynamics did

[butler14]

How do you train someone not to do stupid sh*t like that?

What’s saying that employee didn’t go through H&S training?

I get the legalities, it’s just a fringe case to the extreme, and conflation of that case to imply some wider problem.

Reads like a hit piece.

[dkjaudyeqooe]

Some companies have a strong safety culture. The importance of safety is prioritised. For instance, they are allowed and required to stop work being performed if they see a safety violation [1].

If you take safety seriously you're likely to have a safe workplace. If not you get these sorts of shenanigans.

[1] https://millercares.com/how-stop-work-authority-helps-preven...

[solarkraft]

You have to ensure that they don't do that. This can be through strict controls, peers and firing people you deem to do too much unsafe stuff.

[davemp]

> How do you train someone not to do stupid sh*t like that?

There needs good safety culture. If all your peers will give you an earful if they catch you doing something so visibly dangerous, you'll be less inclined to be a cowboy. Culture usually comes from the top down.

[shiftpgdn]

This is unquestionably a hit piece. I’ve been to Boca Chica and their safety standards seem leagues ahead of oil and gas.

[izacus]

Here's an article showing how Musks other company, Tesla, has a 3x larger injury occurence in Berlin as e.g. Audi: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37689959

You all really need to stop shilling for that dude.

[infecto]

I am sorry you are upset/hurt but I am not defending any person or company. Simply pointing out that the article quotes 2.2/100 workers but that is lower than the US avg of 2.7/100 workers.

I don't think its very constructive to compare two different companies or from a geographical region. Similarly, I don't think its good journalism to point out specific cases without diving deeper into the data. I want to compare it to other industries, the US as a whole, how is it being measured etc. For all we know the other companies in the "missile/space" category include a large engineering staff. I really don't know and whats what I want to dive in. Thats why we have OSHA in the US. If OSHA is not doing its job lets dive into whats happening there first. Why is OSHA not putting appropriate pressure on SpaceX if they are violating guidelines? Workers in SpaceX can also easily report anon to OSHA, or at least that used to be the case a few years ago. We don't know but it would be interesting investigative journalism.

[_Algernon_]

Critical reading of potentially bad journalism isn't shilling.

[izacus]

Defending a known bad actor which has shown a pattern of same behaviour is.

[hackernews1134]

They’re not defending the “known bad actor”. They’re criticizing the journalist for shoddy journalism.

[marcusverus]

From the subreddit:

The 0.8 injuries per 100 workers for "Guided missile and space vehicle manufacturing" category is very low when comparing to other manufacturing industries that is comparable to what SpaceX is doing:

Average of all private industries: 2.7

Fabricated metal product manufacturing: 3.7

Machinery manufacturing: 2.8

Motor vehicle manufacturing: 5.9

Motor vehicle body and trailer manufacturing: 5.8

Motor vehicle parts manufacturing: 3.1

Aircraft manufacturing: 2.5

Ship and boat building: 5.6

[justapassenger]

> What I don't like though is the lack of real comparison

Did you read the article?

> The 2022 injury rate at the company’s manufacturing-and-launch facility near Brownsville, Texas, was 4.8 injuries or illnesses per 100 workers – six times higher than the space-industry average of 0.8. Its rocket-testing facility in McGregor, Texas, where LeBlanc died, had a rate of 2.7, more than three times the average. The rate at its Hawthorne, California, manufacturing facility was more than double the average at 1.8 injuries per 100 workers. The company’s facility in Redmond, Washington, had a rate of 0.8, the same as the industry average.

Also, what's missed in your logic - safety is a process. You can see lots of evidence in this article (which isn't surprising, as Musk talks about it openly) that they avoid process of safety, view it as one-off responsibilities and will cut it whenever they need to move fast on some artificial goals set by the wealthiest man on earth.

[infecto]

Did you not read my comment? The US avg is 2.7/100, they spent 95% of the article talking about specific case and a quick comparison to the industry avg. That industry is so small I am not sure that it is a good comparison.

[mirekrusin]

Exactly, ie. Qatar had something like 40 deaths during World Cup construction.

[hef19898]

Some forced labour camps are even worse than that! Nothing to see here, just move on!

[dkjaudyeqooe]

So just the cost of doing business.

You're ok with yourself or a loved one dying on that basis?

[pauldenton]

96 workers died building the Hoover Dam. In 8 years it will be 100 years since Construction started on the Hoover Dam. It seems like the US just isn't able to make projects like that anymore. Look at the progress of California's HSR,started by Governor Pete Wilson, who established the California High-Speed Rail Authority in 1996. 27 years ago. We have a century's advancement in technology, but the costs of construction, and inability to deal with risk has become a gigantic problem

[NovemberWhiskey]

Uhm, yes, not a comparandum that I'd love if I were a major business.