[abeppu]

I think especially when the first "governments" arose, but also now, the difference between "thieves" who visit you repeatedly and "rulers" can be pretty fuzzy, and is mostly a matter of perspective. But if some guys with weapons who are already in your extended community (perhaps your second cousins or something) run a protection racket and take 20% of your crop every year, but ostensibly protect you from roving/unknown guys with weapons who want to show up and take 80% of your crop periodically, then the presence of "thieves" justify the existence of "rulers" even if they're doing the same basic thing at different scales.

[rindalir]

That's how it always starts! :) I think the origins of the state in agrarian societies is super interesting. Does it start organically (like you and your neighbors agreeing paying a small % for a security service) and then one day you blink and its morphed into a massive bureaucracy with royal granaries, armies, ziggurats and human sacrifices? Does a certain class of people step in and intentionally turn the system into one that primarily benefits themselves? How complex does a society have to be before that happens? etc...

[WD40forRust]

That is called the Mafia State, and I vaguely remember Stefan Molyneux touching on that in the last decade.