[alephnerd]

Not really.

Rwanda has an HDI of 0.545 and this is suspect as well because they have been found to be fudging poverty and GDP metrics

Even Gaza under occupation had a HDI of 0.699 (roughly comparable to Vietnam). The West Bank regions are roughly comparable to neighboring Jordan around 0.710-0.730.

Even most Pakistanis, Afghans, and Syrians have better options in their home country from an economic standpoint.

Russia itself has almost reached a threshold around "Developed" with an HDI around 0.824.

[salamanderss]

I never meant to imply Rwanda is better than the aforementioned on a general level. When you are legitimately fleeing rather than economically migrating though that typically means your individual HDI of sorts was already near zero. It doesn't make much sense to use population HDI of origin for such persons.

[alephnerd]

I've been helping a couple Afghan translators stuck in Afghanistan to get their families into the US. They are all staying put in Kabul or Ghazni until the US processes their visa, and are looking at Pakistan, Saudi, and India as backups in case they need to book it and leave.

They sure as hell aren't going to uproot their lives to end up in another country at a similar developmental level but with no safety net in the form of family if network nor enough relevant jobs nor the relevant language skills

On top of that, there are waaaay better options in general. If you're in WB and want to flee, it's relatively easy to go to Jordan. As a Gazan it is obviously difficult right now with the war, but even before that Gazans who would emigrate abroad (as refugees or immigrants) had a path in Jordan (27% of Jordan is Palestinian), Saudi (1% of Saudi is Palestinian), Qatar (5% of Qatar is Palestinian), and Egypt, which isn't as great as Europe but is definitely better and easier to survive in than Rwanda

It's the same reason Australia opened camps for asylees in Papua New Guinea and Narau - by building a hell on earth they are showing you shouldn't even try apply for asylum.

[salamanderss]

There are 55k Palestinians diaspora in Yemen and that has an even worse HDI than Rwanda. The number of fallacies you've presented I'm starting to lose track. You've used anecdote of an afghan family, general population HDI of origin to measure subpopulations fleeing, you said "not really" to a statement that you could do worse but then did the opposite and instead argued that there were other better possible choices (I never denied this).

It's baffling that you're so dismissive some could use the option, particularly when circumstances and wealth and connections often dictate where you can flee. Low HDI Comoros (now discontinued ) and Vanuatu have CBI programs that have sold tens of thousands of passports to stateless and others in bad situations in the third world ( most of whom have no chance at US visa), despite in theory with the right means other options being better.

The market case is well established, frankly I suspect it's only a matter of time until these incentives open up such doors again in these regions.

[alephnerd]

> It's baffling that you're so dismissive some could use the option

Because it's direct fork of Australia's "Pacific Solution". Look at the data from that - asylum applications DROPPED as asylees from Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, etc simply decided to return to their home country (even it was dangerous like Afghanistan during the surge or Sri Lanka towards the end of the civil war) instead of waiting indefinitely for processing.

Also, I don't think you've ever travelled to actual developing countries or have a background with them. Going from one undeveloped country to another makes absolutely no sense. Stuff is still fucked in developing country B as it is in developing country A. Developing countries simply do not have the resources to adequately manage a population of refugees.

Put yourself in the shoes of a refugee from Aleppo - do you want to go from Aleppo to some random country in Africa with a GDP per Capita of $800 that is probably falsified [0], isn't fully English speaking yet, and is still overwhelmingly agricultural (aka you will be working in a field for less than $2 a day) [1], minimum wage is $2 a MONTH [1], or would you rather just go across the border to Türkiye where median incomes are $400/month, there is a semi-functioning healthcare system, and there are half decent universities so your kids will absolutely have a shot of emigrating to the first world.

> Vanuatu have CBI programs that have sold tens of thousands of passports to stateless and others in bad situations in the third world

You are talking out of your ass.

Vanuatu's CBI program gives you visa free access to Ireland and used to have visa free access to the UK until a couple months ago when they shut down that loophole.

It also requires you to spend $130,000 and have a bank account with at least $250,000. A stateless individual, migrant worker, or refugee does not have half a million dollars to spend on a random citizenship! If they did they would already have an easy time emigrating to a first world country above board.

It's a program used to get a backdoor into Ireland and formerly the UK.

Also, based on your comment history, you look like someone who's education about the world came from Reddit and Youtube. Learn to read real sources (books, NYT, Financial Times, The Economist, Nikkei, NBER papers, etc).

[0] - https://www.ft.com/content/683047ac-b857-11e9-96bd-8e884d3ea...

[1] - https://align-tool.com/source-map/rwanda

[salamanderss]

>Also, I don't think you've ever travelled to actual developing countries or have a background with them. Going from one undeveloped country to another makes absolutely no sense. Stuff is still fucked in developing country B as it is in developing country A. Developing countries simply do not have the resources to adequately manage a population of refugees.

>Put yourself in the shoes of a refugee from Aleppo - do you want to go from Aleppo to some random country in Africa with a GDP per Capita of $800 that is probably falsified [0], isn't fully English speaking yet, and is still overwhelmingly agricultural (aka you will be working in a field for less than $2 a day) [1], or would you rather just go across the border to Türkiye where median incomes are $400/month, there is a semi-functioning healthcare system, and there are half decent universities so your kids will absolutely have a shot of emigrating to the first world.

Awesome you brought those points up. I lived in Syria. Rojava to be exact. I also fought in their militia the YPG. It's awesome you dismissively bring up Turkey, where the Kurds I fought alongside would have been imprisoned or killed -- but yeah just go to Turkey!

>A stateless individual, migrant worker, or refugee does not have half a million dollars to spend on a random citizenship! If they did they would already have an easy time emigrating to a first world country above board.

Not sure if you're serious but this is a real problem for stateless people and Vanuatu, Dominica etc have developed due diligence methods specifically for their stateless CBI clients. Stateless or refugee does not mean they have to be poor. In many cases gaining nationality even a low HDI one is a huge step up in access to global markets and KYC/AML.

>Because it's direct fork of Australia's "Pacific Solution". Look at the data from that - asylum applications DROPPED as asylees from Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, etc simply decided to return to their home country (even it was dangerous like Afghanistan during the surge or Sri Lanka towards the end of the civil war) instead of waiting indefinitely for processing.

Bait and switch (from the viewpoint of asylee) is a bit different here. It's one thing to enter another country as a citizen, quite different than aiming for AUS and ending up in PNG without citizenship and maybe not even work authorization. That's much worse psychologically to many than roughly knowing what you're getting and having citizen footing.

>"Legal gray area"

Lol the US fought alongside YPG. DHS, CBP, and probably others have known for the better part of a decade I was in the YPG. They know who i am, where I've been, where I live and they've interrogated many times at port of entry. Nice scare tactics but I'm gonna guess after a decade of no US YPG getting prosecuted for a non-crime this is a dead issue.

[alephnerd]

> Not sure if you're serious but this is a real problem for stateless people and Vanuatu

You still need to pay $130,000-170,000 to the Vantanu government and have a minimum of $250,000 in the bank. Most people living in the OECD do not have that much money in the bank, let alone people in the developing world.

> I lived in Syria. Rojava to be exact. I also fought in their militia the YPG

Honestly, I highly doubt it. You are an account with less than 100 karma created 17 days ago. I do not think you are of MENA origin and you definetly do not sound it.

In another post you said you were homeless. I legitimately think you are a strawman account.

Based on information from your account you seem to live in Poland, but might be an American citizen.

> where the Kurds I fought alongside would have been imprisoned or killed

Yes, because if you actually were with the YPG you were in an organization that still supports the PKK and Ocalan to this day (an organization that is a proscribed terrorist group in the United States and EU).

Also if you are a US or western citizen who did this with one of their foreign legions, you need to talk to a lawyer right now. You are in a legal grey area.