[monero-xmr]

My broader point is that certain people think that there is this utopian “pre money time” where capitalism didn’t exist. I believe capitalism is the default, free trade is the default, and the fundamental idea that people will engage in for-profit commerce is embedded into our psychologies.

[weatherlight]

capitalism, as a system defined by profit-driven markets and private ownership, is a relatively modern concept and not the default economic state throughout human history. earlier societies often operated on principles of reciprocity and communal sharing rather than for-profit trade. while the inclination to trade can be considered inherent, the forms and rules of trade have varied greatly across cultures and eras, shaped by differing social and political contexts.

[WalterBright]

> is a relatively modern concept and not the default economic state throughout human history

This is speculation.

> earlier societies often operated on principles of reciprocity and communal sharing rather than for-profit trade.

Any society that had specialization of labor did more than that. Heck, the American Indian tribes measured their individual wealth via horse ownership. They certainly engaged in trade with the intent of profit.

[nextaccountic]

horse ownership? that was after european contact, right?

[WalterBright]

Yes. The first thing that happened with european contact was trade. I don't believe they were unfamiliar with it.

[weatherlight]

That’s not speculation. Capitalism is more that just trading for profit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

[WalterBright]

From your link:

"Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit."

[weatherlight]

exactly, "private ownership of the means of production...." that's an important distinction. It also says, "Central characteristics of capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive markets, price systems, private property, property rights recognition, voluntary exchange, and wage labor." Literally the next sentence. I'd rather not argue the very well understood definition of Capitalism.

You can't have wage labor unless you have money as a construct.

[WalterBright]

> Literally the next sentence

That sentence just clarifies what the first sentence implicitly requires, as you cannot trade for profit unless you have property rights, etc.

[monero-xmr]

They paid people in ancient times. They knew what a typical day's wage was in Athens:

> Also during Pericles' tenure, pay for civic service was instituted. No single other reform furthered democracy as much as pay for service. Now many more people could afford to serve, and for some, serving became attractive financially. First, dicasts, or jurors, began to be paid. A low rate, but half a day's wages or so. That was introduced by Pericles while Cimon was still around, perhaps to counteract his liberality with his own wealth. Jurors were appointed by lot annually and could serve year after year. By 422 (Aristophanes Wasps 662), there were 6,000 jurors per year. Cleon increased the pay rate to 3 obols a day. Pericles also started the payment of soldiers and sailors 3 obols a day.

https://www.uvm.edu/~jbailly/courses/clas21/notes/atheniande....

You have a very formal, academic understanding of capitalism while we are arguing that the fundamental ideas of capitalism naturally exist because that's logical for human psychology - owning things, trading, markets, paying people for labor. This is all stuff that goes back to the earliest recorded records. Cuneiform tablets are just endless accounting ledgers.

[monero-xmr]

Capitalism is about accumulating resources privately, and then using those accumulated resources to invest in earning more resources.

If you believe that early man was capable of thinking, "This shit is my shit, that shit is your shit, and if you take my shit I will punish you", then you have the precursors for capitalism. Academics like to throw a bunch of other nonsense around but that's it.