[weatherlight]

Phenomenal book that cover's this exact topic, "Debt: The First 5000 Years." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years

    "The book argues that debt has typically retained its primacy, with cash and barter usually limited to situations of low trust involving strangers or those not considered credit-worthy"

It would make sense that cash would pop up once the Romans arrived, and would be in small amounts to facilitate spot transactions between Romans and the pre-Roman peoples of Britain and why there's such little amounts of cash.

Further more, I can imagine a scenario where Roman coins were melted down to make these coins (total conjecture) .

[LudwigNagasena]

The book is a combination of anecdata and speculation presented in a polemical style. Not really something that I would call “phenomenal”.

[weatherlight]

the book stimulates important discussions on economic history and the roots of our financial systems. While its style is assertive, its contribution to questioning established economic assumptions is undeniably valuable. its also backed by anthropological and archaeological evidence.

[LudwigNagasena]

Unfortunately, Graeber is not well-versed in economic theory so him “questioning established economic assumptions” often resembles fighting windmills or not even that.

If you know any actual contributions to economics or the history of economics that were consequences of his stimulation, I would be glad to hear about them.

[bibanez]

My feeling when I read Debt was that he was smart enough to understand conventional economic theory. My brother studied economics and he was the one who actually recommended me the book.

[tomrod]

As a second nomination, I hold a PhD in economics and found the book interesting.

[weatherlight]

Graeber's background in economic anthropology offers a fresh lens through which to view economic history, highlighting the social and cultural dimensions that traditional economic theories sometimes overlook. His work has encouraged interdisciplinary dialogue, prompting economists and historians alike to incorporate broader socio-cultural understandings into their analyses. While his approach differs from conventional economic theorizing, it complements it by adding depth to our understanding of economic phenomena.

[sebmellen]

I don’t say this as an accusation, but your writing is remarkably similar to ChatGPT output.

[ksaj]

Missing the giveaway "However..." clause that nearly all ChatGPT descriptions have in them.

[Natsu]

I made a prediction that I was going to find out that Graeber was a communist thinker before I looked him up just now. I was not surprised.

[LudwigNagasena]

Right, but are there _actual_ contributions to economics or the history of economics that were consequences of his “stimulation”?

Also, saying that he single-handedly prompted “economists and historians alike to incorporate broader socio-cultural understandings into their analyses” is a huge denigration of institutional economics, behavioural economics, Austrian economics, social economics, etc.

[weatherlight]

It's a relatively recent addition to the discorse, having been published just over a decade ago.

It's definitely apart of the heterodox tradition in economics (without diminishing what's already there), which often takes longer to be integrated into the mainstream.

So, I guess time will tell?

[teachrdan]

> Graeber is not well-versed in economic theory

David Graeber was a professor at the London School of Economics. It appears they believed he was well-versed in economic theory :)

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/condolences/2020/09/03/professor-dav...

[LudwigNagasena]

He was a professor of anthropology.

[weatherlight]

David Graeber was an anthropology professor at the London School of Economics, with a focus on Economic Anthropology. He was also an anarchist and activist. His most significant contribution to the field of economics is his critique of two important ontologies of orthodox economic common sense.

First, Graeber challenged Adam Smith's idea that the history of economics evolved from barter to money to credit. According to Graeber, this sequence is actually reversed: credit systems existed first in pre-money societies, where neighbors kept track of mutual aid. Barter only became prevalent when money was introduced and sometimes unavailable.

Second, he critiqued the socialist theory of primordial debt, which suggests that humans are born with an infinite debt to the cosmos. This theory often uses religious language to support its claims and argues that the government inherits this cosmic debt, leading to total control over money and markets. Graeber distinguishes between religious or moral debt and economic debt, arguing that they operate on different logics.

[ekidd]

From my limited number of anthropology courses, I can assure you that the suspicion between the anthropology and economics departments is often mutual.

You know the joke about how physics is the study of spherical cows of uniform density in a frictionless vacuum? That's because intro level physics makes lots of simplifying assumptions. And if a physicist tried to use those assumptions to lecture a dairy farmer, the farmer might assume the physicist was a fool.

Anthropology tends to assume that too many economists study "spherical humans of uniform density in a frictionless market," basically. One of my anthropology professors actually covered these disputes, including specific cases where U Chicago economics professors attempted to advise governments around the world, and wound up totally misunderstanding particular situations.

Now, anthropology has its blind spots, too. Cultural anthropology has been a bit too willing to believe research describing exotic social structures. Archaeology is fairly sound on the nuts and bolts of pre-historical goods and food sources, but it is sometimes blind to how ideology shapes culture. (Which is a safely conservative stance to take when working with pre-historical cultures, to be fair.)

The factors Graeber describes aren't totally surprising. Lots of real world economies run on complicated webs of personal relationships and favors—just look at investors, for example. Or look at the pre-modern property rights described in Seeing Like a State. Land ownership and harvesting rights in a medieval village could be ridiculously complex. Or the customary payments and "gifts" that people made. For another modern example, consider office politics in a large corporation.

I think Graeber's basic case is plausible: complex debts and obligations seem to underly many band-level and village-level societies, especially when central state power is weak. These arrangements can seem bizarre: I remember a video of an interview with a pig farmer, probably about 60 years old, who was organizing a gift of hundreds of pigs to a neighboring village. This was apparently some kind of competitive gesture designed to elevate the status of the giver. And the farmer was really into this. He was complaining that kids these days were shockingly lazy, and that they had no appetite for hard work, and that they had no hope of putting together a proper gift of pigs. And how can you get anywhere in life if you can't embarrass a neighboring village by giving them more pigs than they gave you? It was a status display, similar to throwing conspicuously expensive parties to outdo your social circle.

The anthropology literature contains a ton of odd behavior around debts, obligations, and complex traditional rights. In a pre-modern community of 60 to 5,000 people, only a fraction of the economy seems to involve currencies or direct barter. Currency is a fantastic simplifying technology. And as Graeber points out, complex traditional webs of debt can be pretty brutal towards people who don't fit in.

[namaria]

I think this whole discussion is related to epistemological attitudes. Anthropology and History tends to lean more heavily into the irreducible complexities of society and to analyze and describe them in detail while usually avoiding to deduce grand theories. Economics on the other hand is very used to a more reductionist, mechanistic view inherited from the political success of early 21st century physics in changing the outcome of wars. Economists saw a chance to be taken seriously in policy making by pretending they were doing social engineering.

[imtringued]

Obviously his contribution is shattering the barter myth. You might consider that insignificant, but it is something.

[bedobi]

I don't mean to be uncharitable but you need to read up on what actual experts say about things Graeber says. He's Joe Rogan level knowledgable, and that's not a compliment.

[spicymapotofu]

Where can I search for this kind of discourse? There's a lot of "actual" here without names.

[nerdponx]

I find that this is true about most non-fiction books I have read. Even when extensively cited, I often get the impression that the author is drawing large conclusions from small data.

[muzani]

Mortimer Adler says that history is closer to fiction than many other forms of books. It's not even data. Autobiographies in particular are rarely true, but not entirely false. It seems that the more data one has, the more likely they are to be biased in interpretation.

[willdr]

Read some actual history books (as in, academic historians, not pop historians).

[nerdponx]

Got any recommendations? I am pretty deep into the Hamilton biography which seems very extensively researched and widely praised. It's an excellent story if nothing else.

[Bouncingsoul1]

I currently work through this list https://press.princeton.edu/series/the-princeton-economic-hi... quite some books on dept eg. https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691173771/le... or https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691168357/fr...

[Exoristos]

And very tendentious.

[7thaccount]

I've seen some work on this as well. It would make sense in small tight knit communities to help out your neighbor when you could and vice-versa. There would be a relatively small need for coinage until things became a lot more complex and urbanized.

[MichaelZuo]

That's still true nowadays if you limit 'cash' to just physical currency.

[weatherlight]

its not quite the same, I explain why in the comments below this one. :)