[tgsovlerkhgsel]

One downside of ammonia is its toxicity (with an IDLH threshold of 300 ppm). I doubt we'll ever see cars running on it, and storing large amounts as energy storage sounds risky.

Do we know if this process is burstable (i.e. the devices for running it are likely cheap enough compared to the energy requirement that they don't need to run 24/7, and could use excess renewable energy when available)?

[ilyt]

Well, petrol or diesel isn't that nice either

[lazide]

Anhydrous ammonia is much worse, creating rolling clouds of ground level deadly gas for long distances. And being very flammable. And explosive.

Gas doing 2 of those 3, and diesel only 1.

[gimmeThaBeet]

I agree, it's kind of a different class of threat for everyday people.

Not assuming it would be the same, but picturing a spill at a gas station. Spilling gas is a problem, but at least it's just sort of there. If you get an ammonia leak and it forms a vapor cloud, I don't think most people would know how to deal with that. I'll bet your spilled gas likely won't migrate into the intersection.

But on the plus side, we already see what handling/transportation of large amounts looks like for agriculture, even if rail carriers etc. dislike dealing with it.

[lazide]

For sure - definitely doable, and certainly not the worst industrial chemical used at large scale. But not super consumer friendly.

[alwayslikethis]

Correction: Ammonia is not flammable since the flash point is significantly above room temperature. It would only be explosive if you consider the pressure vessel exploding, but we also have natural gas powered cars which also have pressurized cylinders. The main real issue is the toxicity.

[lazide]

Nope. Anhydrous ammonia between 18-25% is literally ‘explodes like gas vapor’ type explosive/flammable.

[https://www.worksafebc.com/en/resources/health-safety/risk-a....] [https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/1994-....]

It does have a higher ignition point than gas. But one a spark can definitely reach. It’s been a common problem in industry where ammonia gets used a lot (refrigeration in particular).

BLEVE’s are also a problem too of course. And the toxic nature of breathing it in! Haha.

[totetsu]

Wasn’t that what happened on the docks in Beirut? Or were their fireworks stored next to it that time

[lazide]

Different (but related) chemical. That was ammonium nitrate (fertilizer + blasting agent). Which ammonia is used to make at large scale.

[ForgedEngine]

The flash point is well above any ambient temperature it would be stored at.

[lazide]

Your point is?

Gasoline fumes don’t typically auto-ignite either. And that is all flash point is about.

[bluGill]

Who cares of it explodes, just breathing the stuff is deadly.

[fbdab103]

If it is cheap, that will beat out a lot of other concerns. Not sufficient for consumer use, but power plants are already hazardous places that can engineer significant safety controls.

[im3w1l]

Could we use this process as a building block in the synthesis of some "nicer" fuel? What can ammonia be semi-efficiently converted to?

Edit: Maybe methanol?

[CuriousCosmic]

Well... there's hydrazine (N2H4) which is the stuff they use as monopropellant rocket fuel. It burns even without the presence of oxygen and it's even more toxic and explosive than ammonia. It's the reason the capture crews for returning spacecrafts wear hazmat suits.

However hydrazine is liquid at room temperature and it can be converted to hydrazone (also being considered for fuel cells) which is solid at room temperature and non-reactive... until it comes into contact with water at which point it all turns back into hydrazine.

But yeah no there's really not a "nicer" fuel. Generally, if it has nitrogen in it and it isn't literally just nitrogen with itself, it's dangerous. And the more nitrogens it has the more dangerous it is.

[lazide]

If there is anything that would make ammonia seem warm and cuddly, it is indeed hydrazine!

Urea maybe? It’s almost non toxic and is 2x ammonia + a carbon monoxide molecule.

though not sure how efficient it would be to extract energy from.

Speaking of ‘extra nitrogen’s are generally bad’, a callout to the azides!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azide

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_azide

[lazide]

P.S. Found a sweet Hydrazine youtube video, and figured I needed to add it. [https://youtu.be/V3HuKQvRBUE?si=wTuEwvKJQkidKZAp]

[TheSpiceIsLife]

Diesel is none of those things.

I have extinguished a fire with diesel.

[lazide]

Diesel is definitely flammable. I works great as an accelerant.

It isn’t as easily flammable as gas, and doesn’t have easily autoignitable vapor like gas.

I’m guessing you dumped a lot of it on something without a lot of thermal mass?

If you did the same on a bonfire, you’d have a different story.

[ForgedEngine]

Diesel's flash point is above ambient temperature (unless you live in the Sahara). It has a lower autoignition point than gasoline, which is one of the reasons it's preferred in compression ignition engines.

[lazide]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here?

If you dump gasoline on a fire, it will go ‘fwoomp’ and try to climb back into whatever container you poured it out of. If it succeeds, that container may even explode. Which is bad, and why people die or get terrible burns from pouring gasoline on fires.

If you pour diesel on a fire, the fire will get bigger and none of those things will happen. Unless, apparently, like the poster above, you pour so much on it so fast it drowns it before the diesel can get up to temp. Apparently. I’ve personally never tried that.

Diesel is basically cooking oil in many ways, and you can do the same thing with cooking oil too if you want.

This is well known by every redneck I’ve ever met, and I’ve personally done it numerous times.

P.S. also, putting gasoline on cold fuel in warm climates makes a pretty cool fireball due to said flashpoint. Just, you know, don’t light it from close up. Cold climates? No problem.