[YZF]

Are we talking about the west bank or Gaza here?

- It is true that some Palestinians in the west bank are treated very badly including taking over their water wells. There's a long story or a short story there. We have a right wing government in Israel that supports right wing settlers in the west bank and is trying to kill any hope of peace with Palestinians.

- Israel occupied the west bank from Jordan in 1967. The status of that land was never settled and therefore it is still considered (by Israel and the world) to be an occupied territory and is under military rule. So that's why this area is under military rule. This is international law btw. In the various peace agreements nobody wants this piece of and back. Israel did not annex it. And there's been no agreement with anyone (e.g. Palestinians) about it.

- I think we're talking Gaza again. Are you asking why are Palestinians in Gaza responsible for Israel's failure to protect its citizens from them? I'm not sure how to address this seriously.

- This isn't an excuse but everyone in Israel is in shock/PTSD at the moment. It's a small place and everyone is personally impacted. Calling Hamas sub-human isn't right. They're very human in the worst possible way. Somehow I don't think the analogy between the Jewish people in Europe and Hamas really holds though. I don't recall the Jewish people going around with RPGs and assault rifles and butchering Europeans.

- Hamas is never going to return those hostages and the price would be unacceptable. Israel also has to be concerned about the next round of attacks and hostages. Some of Hamas's leadership today are people that were exchanged for a single Israeli hostage, Gilad Shalit, who was exchanged for 1000 Palestinians, many of which were in jail for killing Israelis. There is no scenario here unfortunately where Israel can get security and the return of the hostages. If there was there wouldn't be a war right now.

And yeah, these recent events aren't exactly a win for humanity.

[tachyons]

Regarding PTSD, don't you think Palestinians are in much worse position? Even if you killed every single Hamas member, relatives of those who are murdered during this genocide will attempt revenge in future right?

Or is starving everyone to death so that there won't be any vengeance is the strategy?

When two neighbours, who genuinely believe that their neighbour will kill them if they get a chance, peace is hard and time consuming task, especially when they have wounds that will take decades to heal.

The least human thing to do there is to stop causing more wounds, as UN secretary general said, Oct 7 wasn't happened from the vaccuum.

[jacquesm]

> peace is hard

When parties are in principle willing peace is hard enough but when hardliners on both sides use each and every opportunity to deepen the conflict peace is as good as impossible.

[YZF]

It's gonna take decades. The cynical take here is that Israel knows it'll be hated (I mean isn't it anyways) and it's going to take away the means of those people to execute on that hate.

What the UN secretary general said isn't helping because it's excusing the Oct 7 attack which is inexcusable. Nothing ever happens in a vacuum. Israel's blockage of Gaza hasn't happened in a vacuum either. Should we trace back the conflict all the way to prehistoric times?

I don't think Israel is going to starve all Gazans to death. It's also not going to kill every single Hamas member. But yes, it will leave another layer of residue on top of this endless conflict.

If Israel stopped now the Hamas would celebrate it's victory, hold on to the hostages forever, or kill them and hold on to their bodies, and Hezbollah would be emboldened to do a repeat performance of this from the North (what exactly is the reason for Lebanese Shea or for Iran to fight Israel btw? Did Israel also steal their lands?). At least that's what this looks like to an Israeli.

I'm just watching this from the sidelines like everyone, how exactly do we stop causing more wounds?

[jacquesm]

> I'm just watching this from the sidelines like everyone, how exactly do we stop causing more wounds?

By focusing on that which can be influenced which is usually limited to your own side. Go back to the Oslo accords, enable a UN peacekeeping mission (with teeth) and abandon any territory settled. That should be a good start. Not that I even dream of the hardliners on either side thinking that is acceptable.

[YZF]

Didn't we just try this in Gaza? Abandoned the territory settled? Imagine if Hamas controlled both Gaza and the West Bank? Israel would be destroyed.

UN peacekeeping is bullshit. What country is going to trust the UN to guarantee it's security. There is UN peacekeeping in Lebanon where attacks against Israel are and were coming from, they do zilch. The history of UN peacekeepers in the region is that at any hint of violence they move away.

On the Israeli side nobody will trust the Palestinians over anything. There's also a minority that believes the entire land belongs to Israel and screw the Palestinians. On the Palestinian side (IMO) there's a majority that is unwilling to take any settlement other than all the Jews should leave the middle east. There's fractures and nobody that represents all of them that can agree and/or enforce any agreement. So here we are.

[jacquesm]

> Didn't we just try this in Gaza?

Not really. The territory abandoned was systematically kept down to the point where any kind of improvement was destroyed again. And much more is being destroyed right now. What do you think all these bombings will do short of just creating the next 20 years of personnel supply for Hamas?

> Abandoned the territory settled?

No, it wasn't just abandoned. The houses that were there were gone and the houses that were built were demolished. So the land was barren. That's not giving the other party a chance, that's the kind of scorched earth tactics that make things worse.

> Imagine if Hamas controlled both Gaza and the West Bank? Israel would be destroyed.

Yes, Hamas is a problem, we are in agreement on that. But so is the Israeli government, the problem is to get them both to back down from their violence-begets-more-violence cycle. And it looks like things are going to get a lot worse rather than better. So you can expect many more Israeli lives to be lost as well as many more Palestinian lives.

> UN peacekeeping is bullshit. What country is going to trust the UN to guarantee it's security. There is UN peacekeeping in Lebanon where attacks against Israel are and were coming from, they do zilch. The history of UN peacekeepers in the region is that at any hint of violence they move away.

I have had family members in Unifil deployments and that's not what I hear. Both sides criticize the UN peacekeepers as being on the side of their enemy, that's usually a good sign.

> On the Israeli side nobody will trust the Palestinians over anything.

Makes you wonder why there isn't a solution possible. But: with the dubious ways in which Hamas was financed there may be enough blame to go around for everybody.

> There's also a minority that believes the entire land belongs to Israel and screw the Palestinians.

Unfortunately that minority has a disproportionate effect on Israeli politics. It should be obvious that this is one of the root causes of this ongoing conflict.

> On the Palestinian side (IMO) there's a majority that is unwilling to take any settlement other than all the Jews should leave the middle east. There's fractures and nobody that represents all of them that can agree and/or enforce any agreement. So here we are.

I'm missing the proxy war that the Arab world has been fighting against Israel using the Palestinians in just as much a cynical way as the right wing in Israel has been using them to keep the conflict alive as much as possible.

[YZF]

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna9331863

And yes, the settlements were razed. The land was not barren. The Palestinians had their destiny in their own hands.