[lmm]

> How does “going to the right school” have anything to do with having a project at work that you took ownership of and you took the time to learn a new to you technology?

The right schools give you the opportunity and mentality to do that (and before that, even more fundamentally, so does having a comfortable upbringing), and then you'll compound that with your experiences in the good jobs that going to the right schools gets you.

> Do you realize that scope, impact and dealing with ambiguity is literally in the leveling guidelines stated in some way or the other in every tech company?

Everyone does it, that's exactly the point - you limit class mobility by ensuring that the good jobs are only available to the people from the right class. Even if someone from the lower classes has the skills to excel, they never get the chance to take ownership, learn new skills, and expand the scope of their impact because they're never hired for a position in which they can take ownership, take the time to learn, and have impact beyond their narrow position, because they never have a way to show that they can take ownership and learn new skills...

[scarface_74]

What do you mean you don’t get the chance to learn new skills? There are plenty of free resources on the internet to teach yourself new skills.

When I’m looking for the behavioral traits I wouldn’t care if they could only tell me stories about being the shift lead at McDonalds.

You realize I only got a job at a company that anyone has ever heard of at 46?

It’s called “work ethic”. Right now, I am building a team where the actual coding is really simple in the grand scheme of things. Since ChatGPT is well trained on the AWS SDK, the CDK, etc. you could literally use it to do 90% of the work.

But the organizational complexity, business rules, etc are complicated and we are still figuring everything out. I need someone with the following behavioral traits. I’m going to frame them in terms of the Amazon LPs since it gives everyone a publicly available point of reference:

- Customer Obsession

- Ownership

- Learn and Be Curious

- Bias for Action

- Dive Deep

- Have Backbone; Disagree and Commit

- Deliver Results

If you have any kind of work experience at the mid or senior level you should be able to demonstrate those.

I could answer “tell me about a time when” type questions three years out of college graduating from my no name HBCU in the south after my first job.

[lmm]

> What do you mean you don’t get the chance to learn new skills? There are plenty of free resources on the internet to teach yourself new skills.

Which is fine if you've got a job with reasonable hours that doesn't leave you drained at the end of it, and the rest of your life is stable enough for that, and...

> I ... got a job at a company that anyone has ever heard of at 46

> It’s called “work ethic”.

Maybe. Or maybe it's luck. People are particularly bad at assessing which when it comes to their own history.

> I need someone with the following behavioral traits.

Or you need someone with something else that's correlated with them. Or what you need isn't really related to them at all.

> If you have any kind of work experience at the mid or senior level you should be able to demonstrate those.

Right. Once you've made the leap into the good jobs it's easy to stay there (and if you went to the right schools then it's easy to get the first good job, and if you're born to the right family then it's easy to get into the right schools). The trouble is getting there at all.

> I could answer “tell me about a time when” type questions three years out of college graduating from my no name HBCU in the south after my first job.

Sounds like you had a good first job.

[scarface_74]

> Which is fine if you've got a job with reasonable hours that doesn't leave you drained at the end of it, and the rest of your life is stable enough for that, and...

It sounds like you’re making excuses. You mean you spend every hour of your life working? Are you suggesting that we should have no hiring criteria?

> Maybe. Or maybe it's luck. People are particularly bad at assessing which when it comes to their own history

You did see the part where I would find it perfectly acceptable to show the behavioral traits by working any job? Of course you do have to have technical experience - not even in the stack we are using. I can teach the specific technology.

> Sounds like you had a good first job.

My first job was a computer operator working on mainframes.

[lmm]

> Are you suggesting that we should have no hiring criteria?

> You did see the part where I would find it perfectly acceptable to show the behavioral traits by working any job?

I'm suggesting that hiring criteria that reflect more directly on the candidate's abilities, and less on what opportunities they've had to date, are fairer. (And, distinctly but relatedly, the more objective the assessment is, the better for those from lower-class backgrounds). For someone who's grown up in a working class household where showing initiative had negative consequences and then gone through public schools where showing initiative had negative consequences through to line-level jobs where showing initiative had negative consequences, a tech interview that focuses primarily on whether they've got the skills, and lets them show it through their fizzbuzz/leetcode/hackerrank/what-have-you, is one of the few ways to make it out.

[scarface_74]

A few issue:

1. People who were too busy to study to learn how to code would definitely be too busy to grind leetcode as well as adults who are already in the industry with families

2. Okay you can reverse a binary tree on the whiteboard. That tells me nothing about whether you are the kind of person that I can assign a task like “a customer has some vague idea of what they want. I need you to figure out the details and come up with a proposal and a design and present it to them and get feedback”. Then if they don’t know the technology, I need them to be able to learn it. This is what I mean by “Customer Obsession”, “Learn and be curious”, “Digging Deep” and dealing with ambiguity. If I need them to lead a project, I need to know they are able to handle items dealing with “scope”.

I want to know if they have a history of “delivering results “.

These are all traits that you were required to show to get a return offer as an intern for a full time job as an L4 consultant working in Professional Services at AWS.

I threw tasks like this at a first year employee who I had mentored as intern and they passed everything I threw at then with flying colors.

At my current job, I’m working with a green field project where everything is ambiguous and I need someone I can throw a poorly defined objective at and they can take the ball and run with it. Leetcode isn’t going to tell me anything.

[lmm]

> 1. People who were too busy to study to learn how to code would definitely be too busy to grind leetcode as well as adults who are already in the industry with families

I think many more people have the opportunity to grind leetcode than have the opportunity to "take the time to learn a new to you technology" that they can then apply to a work project - which requires not just time but also having the right work environment in which they can apply it. Of course you're right that many people don't have the time for either, and a handful of professional-managerial class people who are already in good jobs might be able to do the latter during work hours but not the former.

> whether you are the kind of person that I can assign a task like “a customer has some vague idea of what they want. I need you to figure out the details and come up with a proposal and a design and present it to them and get feedback”.

> I want to know if they have a history of “delivering results “.

Do you think you're measuring something objective about their ability to do the job? To the extent that you are, do you think what you're measuring is something different / better than "has decent general intelligence + has existed in professional-managerial-class spaces (or, more specifically, in jobs like this one) for a while?" Do you have evidence about the answers to either of those questions?