[mrtksn]

Having lived in UK and Germany for some time, although I'm a big fan of the British culture, I keep maintaining that Germany is much much better country overall simply because it's not centralised as UK is centralised in London.

Germany is prosperous, maybe there are not as many Unicorns as in USA or even UK, the country works like a clockwork and everyone is very active in very wide range of stuff.

All those charts showing how Europe is behind because top 100 largest companies are mostly American tech giants, some petrol companies and some construction and bank stuff from China? Those are so so misleading into making people believe that Germany or mainland Europe is a wasteland that missed out on technology.

Especially Germany, they have very well educated and healthy population and even if they don't make the most trendy consumer products right now, they still have wast infrastructure and people who can produce things.

Of course not everything is rosy, but Germany's and mainland Europe's core problems all come down to cheap energy availability and that's solvable. It's much easier to solve than stuff like widespread social problems like decline due to drug use or political instability.

They tend to rely on paperwork a bit too much maybe, they don't use credit cards that much etc. all these stereotypes are true but technology is not limited to computers, other stuff is also important and they are still pretty good in these things.

[PurpleRamen]

> I keep maintaining that Germany is much much better country overall simply because it's not centralised as UK is centralised in London.

That's interesting. In Germany the decentralization is considered a main reason for the many problems on modernization in bureaucracy and other public areas.

> Those are so so misleading into making people believe that Germany or mainland Europe is a wasteland that missed out on technology.

I think the reason is more that Germany was an early adopter of many technologies, but was then trapped on old infrastructure and workflows, while some others simply failed for various reasons. So it's more an upgrade-problem, then "installation"-problem.

> Europe's core problems all come down to cheap energy availability and that's solvable. It's much easier to solve than stuff like widespread social problems like decline due to drug use or political instability.

In theory yes, in reality it goes hand in hand. Germany for example is cursed by people who poison the progress since a long time. And the harm is showing since a while now. Ironically, it usually only gets better when something catastrophically happened, like Fukushima, or the War with Russia.

[mrtksn]

>In Germany the decentralization is considered a main reason for the many problems on modernization in bureaucracy and other public areas.

They probably have a point. Both structures have pros and cons, I believe.

[PurpleRamen]

That's for sure. But Germany at the moment is in a phase where the decentralization is biting it. While UK seems to succeed in some areas where Germany fails at the moment. So it's fascinating to see such a comment.

[anonyfox]

There are lots of tradeoffs with the current decentral/federated system for sure. But one key point is that it’s incredibly hard for an extremist or fascist party to take over the whole country and run it into the ground quickly(again!). And with the growing rightwing populism over here it’s a good thing to prevent the worst.

Of course the setup also slows down progressive policies or any changes in general due to conservatives/rightwingers blocking things, but that’s the price of it.

[piva00]

Germany is a powerhouse of medium-sized companies supplying precision engineering to a bunch of other industries. Those companies are mostly invisible to the consumer market but provide the machines which make machines, the German M&E (machinery and equipment) sector is massive, just not as flashy as tech unicorns creating yet-another ad-filled consumer product...

[geff82]

Look at southern Germany on Google Maps Satellite View. It's all small towns with immense commercial/production area around it. It's not some row of Motels/McDonalds/Walmart like in many areas of the US, but tons of specialised companies. Not many unicorns, but tons of innovative, profitable enterprises.

[FirmwareBurner]

>Germany is a powerhouse of medium-sized companies supplying precision engineering to a bunch of other industries.

Sure, but looking at valuation of the likes of Apple versus German "hidden champions", the big money is in products targeting the general consumer and not niche machinery widgets. This is also reflected in things like work culture, treatment of workers and pay.

This missing out on the wave of consumer tech and software, and sticking to pushing dying tech like diesel engines all the way till the 2010's, is probably one of the reason the purchasing power of the average German has stagnated since the 90's when it peaked.

Source: have worked at a couple of Germany's hidden champions making some high end machinery widgets and wouldn't do it again unless I was facing homelessness. US companies for me all the way baby (operating on EU soil).

[moooo99]

> Sure, but looking at valuation of the likes of Apple versus German "hidden champions", the big money is in products targeting the general consumer and not niche machinery widgets.

This isn't a particularly good comparison. Comparing the largest B2C company in the world to some SMB isn't particularly fitting. When comparing "valuations" it is also important to consider the fact that some of Germany's biggest companies are entirely privately owned and not exchange listed - and also popular in the US to an extent at least (Lidl, Bosch).

> is probably one of the reason the purchasing power of the average German has stagnated since the 90's when it peaked.

This is a pretty widespread trend and just as prevalent in the US. Salary increases desperately lacking behind the countries' productivity. Some interesting reads [1] [2]

> Source: have worked at a couple of Germany's hidden champions making some high end machinery widgets and wouldn't do it again unless I was facing homelessness. US companies for me all the way baby (operating on EU soil).

That's a pretty personal and individul experience which comes down to personal preference. Certainly, both vastly different ways of working have their benefits and drawbacks. Having a few colleagues who switched from US based companies to a somewhat large German hidden champion, they seem to be pretty happy here for the most part. I'm under the impression that the focus on US companies is especially prevalent in software related jobs, which is not surprising given the $$$ and the interesting technical challenges (at least for FAANGish companies). I don't think such strong preference exists for other industries to be honest.

[1] https://economics.stackexchange.com/questions/15558/producti...

[2] https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

[3] https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/conferences/shared/pdf/2018061...

[FirmwareBurner]

> large German hidden champion

If they're large, then they're not really hidden anymore. Hidden champions are usually those sub-200 employee companies usually located in the county side. SAP, Porsche or Zeiss are not hidden champions.

[moooo99]

I don't work for SAP, Porsche or Zeiss. I work for a company that is rather large but rather unknown outside the geographic region it operates locations and outside the industry it operates in, thus it perfectly fits the definition of a hidden champion, but not of a SMB (Mittelstand).

Whenever I tell someone where I work, there is a 80% chance they've never heard of the company, despite there being a high chance they use one or multiple of our products.

[delecti]

Amusingly I've found the experience of working at a German company in the US to be a huge upgrade. Maybe the real secret is just a foreign company to temper the culture of your own country's.

[bparsons]

I would rather have a smaller GDP backed by real underlying industrial capacity rather than frothy valuations on photo sharing apps and exotic financial instruments.

[FirmwareBurner]

We're not talking about GDP here. The local purchasing power of the average German worker has plummeted since the 90's, especially when you factor in housing costs.

[hef19898]

Geramy becoming the third largest economy by GDP sounds exactly we are talking GDP here.

That housing became unaffordable is a different topic, one purely caused by greedy investors.

[FirmwareBurner]

GPD is relatively irelevant to the welfare average person as the GDP is a number that can be artificially inflated by a number of factors respectful of the average worker. Higher GDP doesn't automatically translate to higher wages and better standard of living for everyone.

You can be a tax heaven and if FAANG and big-tech corps simply use your country as a base station to funnel the sales and profits of an entire continent/economic area becasue they pay no taxes there, then your GDP will be insane but that might not mean much to your average worker who isn't getting a piece of that pie.

Germany is Europe's richest country, but that doesn't make the Germans as individuals automatically the wealthiest citizens in Europe. Think about hat for a second. In fact, when it comes to wealth, the avenge Germans net worth is significantly lower than most wealthy EU states, sometimes even on par with those form former Eastern block EU states.

[junon]

ZEISS is another one but I wouldn't consider them midsize.

[Wytwwww]

> the country works like a clockwork

Except trains and government bureaucracy and a bunch of other things.

[katbyte]

I recently was taking trains across Germany and while some where late and others went out of service there was always another to hop onto and it was easy to find.

Maybe not like clockwork but as a visitor from a country without a strong train network I was (easily?) impressed

[haspok]

Switzerland no longer accepts some DB (German Rail) trains crossing the border, they are forced to terminate early, and passengers have to change trains. Reason: DB delays are so frequent that if they did not do this the Swiss rail network would also collapse.

Germany's Liebling has always been the Autobahn, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

[anuraaga]

This reminds me when my DB broke down on the way to Zurich just past the border and I had to change trains, though I believe in that case it was a swap from broken DB to not-yet-broken DB. The scenery was great so I didn't mind terribly.

Sorry for the pointless post but got to reminiscing.

[dj_mc_merlin]

Yes, people in Germany love complaining about their trains. It makes sense, a decade ago they were way better. For everybody else that's experienced the train systems of other countries, it's still incredibly good.

[PierreProstata]

I think the issue is that for a long long time we were a car nation wearing the coat of a train nation and while the stereotype (and expectation) solidified itself we privatized the railway system, converted many of the Western cities from public transportation focussed to car focussed (and back) and continued to make the car industry the bedrock of a few states' economies.

[rsynnott]

It's all relative; Irish Rail makes DB look very good, say. I gather the British rail companies are as bad or worse these days.

[torginus]

I think that's the chief difference between countries that do well with immigration and the ones that don't - I have some French friends, who have basically fled the country because Paris has become unlivable - too expensive, too little space, and if someone with a good education and income has found it a struggle to get a decent place and live a good life, how is life for the rest of society?

[mrtksn]

>I have some French friends, who have basically fled the country

Are those friends enjoying the irony of becoming immigrants to escape immigrants?

[Gud]

I doubt those friends were escaping an influx of skilled labor. Immigration is a complex topic, it is not something binary.

[torginus]

I don't think it's a good idea to take the culture war angle - I was just pointing out the fact that some countries/societies are set up in a way that promote their capitals into unhealthy economic centers of gravity, that attract way too many people. Which in turn, strains the local services and housing situation to an unreasonable degree, causing all sorts of misery for the inhabitants.

It's natural - and necessary for self regulation - for people to take the initiative and move out of these places.

[mrtksn]

I wasn't but I also couldn't get over the irony of it. However, the misery aspect must be much more complex. For example, why people are not building more homes? Are we out of bricks? Also, as you pointed out the centralisation around a major city is another aspect of it.

Unfortunately we are having hard times. IMHO, a huge part of it is the contemporary landed gentry.

[FirmwareBurner]

>Are those friends enjoying the irony of becoming immigrants to escape immigrants?

Every country welcomes you with open arms if you're a skilled and educated laborer in areas of shortage and not migrating to be a burden on the welfare system.

[flakron]

they are not immigrants, they are expats /s

[thinkingtoilet]

I have some bad news for your friends. Cities are becoming more expensive everywhere regardless of immigration. Private equity is buying up houses/apartments en masse and "maximizing profit". Inflation is very real. Immigration will certainly be an issue in some cities, but it's not all roses everywhere else.

[mrtksn]

Exactly. People like to demonise the poor immigrants that would like to work and welcome the rich ones with open arms but the life has become so hard in cities especially due to the rich ones who don't add anything to the society because they don't even live there and even if they live, don't engage with the local population. They swoop in, claim the resources and actively extract them(for example by keeping the apartment empty).