[vkou]

The ones that won the war for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba, and drove 80% of the indigenous population out of their homes at gunpoint.

(At least, they are currently hailed as freedom fighters by one side in that conflict. The Palestinians condemn them, but nobody cares what they think.)

[hersko]

Oh, you mean the war where multiple arabs armies attacked the newly formed Israel at the behest of the local arabs? Where the leader of the Arab League Azzam Pasha said, "this will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades [1]."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

[petsfed]

The newly formed Israel, that was formed because of constant (arguably terrorist) attacks on the British army, alongside actions against indigenous Palestinian Arabs (actions that could justly be called pogroms themselves), by Jewish separatists.

Those separatists were justifiably motivated, by the reality of the Holocaust, and the endless series of pogroms in pre-WWII Eastern Europe, to want a place of their own.

There was a certain kind of Jewish settler who decided that moving slowly back, and doing so in a friendly fashion to the people they were necessarily displacing, was unacceptable. it did not matter that other people had been living for centuries on the land they felt was theirs. It did not matter to them that most Jews were forced out of Palestine by ancient Rome.

I think a lot about the establishment of Israel in 1948, and the Landback movement here in the states. Is there a statute of limitations on giving land back to a displaced people? It feels like there should be.

[invalidname]

There are a lot of claims there. Some fair some not. Neither ones relate to the current conflict. The claims of "drove 80% of the indigenous population out of their homes at gunpoint." is repeated often but is also missing a lot of context:

* Israelis didn't start that war

* Israelis were surrounded and attacked on all sides. They won.

* Many Arabs stayed and were invited to stay. They enjoy equal votes, supreme court positions and freedom of religion.

* Jews living in Arab countries were chased out and lost all their property too.

Furthermore, the occupied territories is the area we're talking about. That area belonged to Jordan/Egypt respectively. None of them wanted them back during peace talks. These people didn't have freedom before Israel came in.

Israel TRIED to make a peace treaty. The *HAMAS* destroyed that treaty by blowing people up. Its stated goal is the destruction of Israel. It is NOT about freedom in any way. It's about murder. Plain and simple...

The only way Palestinians will ever be free from Israel is if the Hamas is destroyed.

[unmole]

A bunch of European Jews turned up in West Asia and and claimed it was their land on the basis of a story book. This was the starting point from which they wanted peace. It's not hard to understand why it was unacceptable to Arabs.

[invalidname]

Muslims believe that same book of nonsense too... Half of these Jews lived in Arab states and were chased out of these lands (losing their homes too).

The Jews started coming in the 19th century and purchased lands. Many areas were bought during those years. During that time the land wasn't "owned" by any country so there was never a Palestinian country. It was controlled by the Ottoman empire and then by the English.

When the English left they divided the land between both factions giving the Jews a piece after the horrors of the Holocaust. Arabs started a war and lost.

I have empathy to the plight of the Palestinians. They shouldn't pay for the sins of their and our forefathers. But it's been multiple generations by now. It's fair to have a grievance, it's stupid to pick up arms when that hasn't worked well in the past.

[unmole]

While the Holocaust is used as justification for the creation of Israel, the Balfour declaration came decades before. Zionism was a European colonial project lead by Ashkenazim. The Mizrahim from Arab states migrated in numbers after the State of Israel was proclaimed.

The Palestinian identity is definitely a modern creation, shaped primarily as a reaction against Israel. But it's not too different from the notion of a Jewish People who need a separate homeland, shaped by European anti-Semitism.

[invalidname]

> While the Holocaust is used as justification for the creation of Israel, the Balfour declaration came decades before. Zionism was a European colonial project lead by Ashkenazim. The Mizrahim from Arab states migrated in numbers after the State of Israel was proclaimed.

So. How does this contradict anything I said?

Ashkenazi Jews came earlier and bought up land. That was land that was ruled by the Ottoman empire and later the English. We were discussing Palestinians driven from their home during the independence war. During that same time Mizrahi Jews were driven away from their homes.

> The Palestinian identity is definitely a modern creation, shaped primarily as a reaction against Israel. But it's not too different from the notion of a Jewish People who need a separate homeland, shaped by European anti-Semitism.

Again. I don't see how this collides with anything I said. I very much believe in a two state solution and have a lot of empathy to the plight of the Palestinian people. The Hamas is evil though, not a freedom fighting organization.

I think there are plenty of legitimate things Israel can be blamed for (settlements, treatment of the PLO post Oslo, etc.). Arguing over history is pointless, both sides have deep victimization grievances. The Hamas is only making matters worse for the Palestinians and harder for those of us trying to bring about a Palestinian state.

[vkou]

> * Israelis didn't start that war

Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that it's okay for freedom fighters to displace a civilian population at gunpoint, as long as it's the other side who started the conflict?

[invalidname]

Not what I said. That was one point only. There are stories of the Jews in Haifa who begged their Arab neighbors to stay. They did. OTOH there are plenty of stories of slaughter of Jews during that war. It was a terrible war. There was no law since there was no country. No organized army with discipline and rules. I'm sorry these things happened.

That first war had war crimes on both sides. Lots of them. The Israeli side won. If it had lost I'm sure the Jews would be in a far worse situation than the Arabs are in the state of Israel.

[pauldenton]

Starting a war shows a lack of restraint. Whether it was Russia or Hamas.