[hluska]

You responded to that with even more mental gymnastics - this time a ‘reputable lender’ who will jump in with an emergency loan then run off.

Then you’ve thrown in another red herring claiming this thread argues that tech workers should have more options. Nobody said anything close. Rather, the argument is that letting your company run down to zero is irresponsible.

[JumpCrisscross]

If the hypothetical of terms on the table for a loan is a red herring, so is the supposition that management had months of visibility into their demise.

Convoy wasn't a pure software business. It didn't operate on massive gross margins; it was operationally (and financially) levered. Decades-old trucking companies are going down unexpectedly; I'm not sure why HN's armchair executives figure they could have called this cleaner.

[FireBeyond]

At least two ex-Convoy employees have posted in this thread saying they are "extremely unsurprised" that this happened, and could see it coming.

Handwaving away things like you have doesn't add value - many of us have worked at startups, and the warning signs are common and repeated. A handwaving dismissal along the lines of "plenty of companies have turned things around at the last moment, running on fumes, so it would have been irresponsible for Convoy to do anything but run it to zero!" is disingenuous, fatuous or both.

[JumpCrisscross]

> two ex-Convoy employees have posted in this thread saying they are "extremely unsurprised" that this happened, and could see it coming

They were laying people off every few months for over a year. There is a difference, however, between a material chance of default and being completely fucked.

> it would have been irresponsible for Convoy to do anything but run it it zero!"

They should have put severance terms into their original employment contracts. Providing employees with de novo severance after you know it's going under guarantees creditor lawsuits. (Remember: Convoy was heavily indebted.) One thing worse than getting shafted like these guys would be receiving a subpoena months later clawing back severance.

If there is a non-civic action item from this, it's to put good severance terms into your employment agreements before shit hits the fan. (Counterpoint: it could accelerate your demise.)

[FireBeyond]

> Providing employees with de novo severance after you know it's going under guarantees creditor lawsuits.

Citation needed. Providing executive suite with bonuses and parachutes does. Indeed, even law firms talk about this:

> Severance payments to “insiders” (generally defined under the Bankruptcy Code as officers, directors, persons in control of the business, and relatives of such individual(s)) could be subject to lawsuits to avoid or clawback the severance payments.

Fraudulent conveyance, there. No mention is made of creditors issuing lawsuits against rank and file employees.

Indeed, even for severance payments that were never in employment contracts, courts place them at/near the front of the line in bankruptcy proceedings, witness Toys R Us.

But I'd be very curious to see any cases where creditors have been able to block severance payments that are not to the C suite.

[JumpCrisscross]

Clawback is one year for insiders, 90 days for all others [1]. We're describing something closer to simultaneity, where "the debtor enters into a severance agreement simultaneously with an employee’s termination" [2]. This is precedented for clawback, and would almost certainly be litigated given the number of employees involved.

TL; DR The moment you find the business insolvent, it belongs to your creditors. Many commenters are treating Convoy like a run-of-the-mill equity-funded start-up.

> No mention is made of creditors issuing lawsuits against rank and file employees

Most likely, the creditors would file an injunction and put the company into bankruptcy on the basis of management having essentially said that it’s insolvent.

> even for severance payments that were never in employment contracts, courts place them at/near the front of the line in bankruptcy proceedings

Closer to the middle [3]. With Toys ‘R’ Us, the creditors voluntarily provided the severance [4]. No court forced it. And it wasn’t provided by management or shareholders.

[1] https://www.americanbar.org/groups/litigation/resources/news...

[2] https://www.jonesday.com/en/insights/2010/09/fifth-circuit-a...

[3] https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/LSB10288.pdf

[4] https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/11/21/18106545/toys-r-us-...

[FireBeyond]

In [1], it'd be hard for a trustee to argue that making severance payments to rank and file employees is not something "made in the ordinary course of business" (which is a statutory defense against clawback).

Your reference in [2] refers to an executive, an "insider", which is exactly what I said - that there is precedent against allowing such payments to insiders (hence the one-year clawback window).

I still can't find any cases where unsecured creditors have successfully injuncted a bankrupt company from making severance payments to non-executive employees.

> With Toys ‘R’ Us, the creditors voluntarily provided the severance [4].

The creditors did no such thing. From your source, emphasis mine:

> Two of the private equity firms that used to own the defunct toy store have allocated $20 million to a severance fund that will be distributed in the coming months."

The mediators who were handling part of the bankruptcy proceedings agreed to administrate the disbursement of funds.