[bheadmaster]

> Capitalism encourages generating wealth since people get to keep a slice of it, instead of being all looted by the state. The productivity gap is huge between the two systems.

1) In current capitalist system, almost all the "slices" are taken by owners and banks. Most workers only get crumbs of the wealth they create.

2) Communism and capitalism are not the only two ways of distributing wealth - there's a huge contiuum between them (like European socialism), and a huge number of paradigms outside of them.

[WalterBright]

> almost all the "slices" are taken by owners and banks

That's what provides the incentives to produce.

As for "almost all", if you've ever run a business (I have) everyone you deal with has their hand out for a piece. The owner gets what is left over.

[bheadmaster]

> That's what provides the incentives to produce.

No, it's the threat of dying of hunger that provides the incentive to produce.

The fact that almost all slices are taken by owners and banks actually creates incentive to capture as much value as possible regardless of production of it.

[WalterBright]

Don't overlook the "slices" taken by the employees and everyone else who provides goods and services to your business.

> it's the threat of dying of hunger that provides the incentive to produce.

And then you contradict it with:

> creates incentive to capture as much value as possible

[bheadmaster]

I'm not contradicting anything, you just didn't get the distinction:

Incentive is to capture value, not create it. Workers create value because they have no other choice, but the system encourages capturing of value on a large scale. Rent-seeking and debt-collection is the most profitable activity in capitalism, not creation of value.

[WalterBright]

> Workers create value because they have no other choice

Of course they have a choice. They're not slaves.

> Rent-seeking and debt-collection is the most profitable activity in capitalism, not creation of value.

You can't collect wealth that is not created.

[bheadmaster]

> Of course they have a choice. They're not slaves.

Yes, they have a choice to be homeless and/or die of starvation. What a choice.

> You can't collect wealth that is not created.

By that logic, slavery is also a great system because it also creates value.

[nickpp]

> "slices" are taken by owners and banks

It is quite trivial to become owner today. All you have to do is buy a share (or even a fraction of it!), and you can do it from your very phone - the wonders of Capitalism.

> huge contiuum between them (like European socialism)

That explains quite well the why Europe is falling so far behind USA in the 21st century: in the communism - capitalism continuum EU slid a little too much to the left.

> huge number of paradigms outside of them

Please do present them because I keep hearing they exist but nobody is giving any working, real-world tested examples.

[bheadmaster]

> Europe is falling so far behind USA

In which ways, exactly?

Healthcare in European countries is leagues above American healthcare for ordinary people, and so is social support system. In US, if you run out of money, you're simply left to starve or die of disease.

[nickpp]

Here in Eastern Europe we are thankful for private healthcare every day - the state-run socialized healthcare literally kills. Recently there was a case of a senior citizen left without a simple oxygen tank until he was braindead - just because the state employees did not give a crap.

Hospitals look like in the First World War movies. Every little thing (like toilet paper or soap in the communal bathroom) is missing. You have to buy your own medicine and bring consumables with you... I could go on.

> left to starve or die of disease

Who are food stamps, Medicare and Medicaid programs for then?

[Radim]

As a follow European, having lived in several countries east-to-central-to-west, I concur.

Where did this myth that European healthcare is some sort of panacea originate?

Maybe from far away, if you squint really hard, through ideology-tinted lenses?

Or some viral study referring to 1990s Sweden?

You want to avoid the public healthcare system like the plague. GPs, dentists, specialists, palliative care… always look for the "private" option first. I scare-quote "private" because the industry is heavily regulated so that even private care must be half-public, in order to operate legally.

The resulting public system is depersonalized, bureaucratic, uncaring, underfunded (inevitable corruption and inefficiency of mind-boggling proportions rather than lack of funds as such). The system survives through heroic efforts of overworked & abused "public" doctors and nurses.

In my home EU country (CZ) the medical staff are either revolting [0] or resolving to good old bribery to restore the market conditions [1].

And CZ is just middle of the pack: most European countries have it worse, according to the Euro Health Consumer Index [2].

[0] https://www-seznamzpravy-cz.translate.goog/clanek/domaci-ziv...

[1] https://www-seznamzpravy-cz.translate.goog/clanek/domaci-ziv...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_Health_Consumer_Index

[nickpp]

Thanks for providing your perspective! It’s incredibly frustrating to keep reading from people whose hospitals look like 5* hotels coupled with the Space Station praising a system they never used and have no idea how bad it can be.

Just because they perceive it as being free (although we are paying it through the nose in our monthly taxes) while theirs require a job and an insurance (which ours pretty much requires too).

[bheadmaster]

> Hospitals look like in the First World War movies. Every little thing (like toilet paper or soap in the communal bathroom) is missing. You have to buy your own medicine and bring consumables with you... I could go on.

That's just bullcrap. I live in a fairly poor Eastern European country, and public hospitals work fine. The only problem is that you may have to wait up a week to get an appointment (because everyone is using public healthcare), but apart from that I've never had a problem with public healthcare in my life. They diagnoze you, they give you prescription (which you don't have to pay for), and you go home.

Maybe you resent that the buildings don't look like 5 star hotels, but all I care about is that place is clean and sanitized, and does the job.