[tripu]

> I don't know what reports you've read

I used these reports, which I already knew before writing this post:

• Both Poland and Hungary are classified as “flawed democracies” by The Economist. Only 24 countries are considered to be “full democracies” (and this is irrelevant, but Spain happens to be among them). https://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438/images/DI-final-version...

• On a scale of 0–100 on political freedom, Freedom House gives Poland 81 points and Hungary 66 points. (This is irrelevant, but Spain gets 90 points.) https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores?sort...

• The UN's Human Development Index ranks Poland #34 and Hungary #46. (This is irrelevant, but Spain ranks #27.) https://hdr.undp.org/system/files/documents/global-report-do...

• Amnesty International on Poland: “Access to abortion was further limited. Criminal charges were used to curtail freedom of expression. The authorities continued to erode the independence of the judiciary. Freedom of peaceful assembly was restricted. Violations of LGBTI rights persisted.” https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/...

• Amnesty International on Hungary: “Discrimination against LGBTI and Roma people persisted. Women’s sexual and reproductive rights suffered significant rollback. Teachers were denied the right to strike. Pushbacks of refugees and migrants continued in violation of EU law. The European Court of Human Rights ruled that Hungary had violated the ban on collective expulsions. Other judgments from the Court were not fully implemented. […] The European Parliament declared in September that Hungary could not be considered a full democracy.” https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/...

[johnisgood]

They classify Hungary as a "flawed democracy" because people living in Hungary do not support Western values as much as they would like them to do. I would take those classifications with a pinch of salt. Both the Hungarian government and the Hungarian people are seeking to keep their cultural values, and/or traditions. Telling them to do this and that to undermine it is going to be responded to with criticism. Of course the West and especially the EU hates them. In fact, Hungary is being extremely hated for staying neutral with regarding to the Ukraine-Russia war, and refusing to send weapons or money for weapons to Ukraine. Yes, Hungary is hated because of its pacifist views. Now, would you ever take anyone seriously if they hated Hungary for not supporting and refusing to fuel the war? They think that Hungary is a flawed democracy because (and maybe for other reasons as well) the Hungarian people (!) keep voting for Orbán.

[tripu]

I'm not denying that bias or that animosity that you describe. It may well be that Hungary is despised in some circles because it's more conservative than most European countries.

That is still compatible with a dispassionate evaluation of the democratic quality of its political system.

Again, I'm not necessarily defending my sources here. But I'm not automatically discounting them, either.

The Economist classifies Hungary as a flawed democracy due to a very poor mark in "political participation", "functioning of government" and "civil liberties". Those sections look at measures such as "voter participation/turn-out for national elections", "the degree to which the judiciary is independent of government influence", "the degree to which citizens are treated equally under the law", "how pervasive is corruption", "is there an effective system of checks and balances on the exercise of government authority", etc.

Freedom House ranks Hungary poorly in aspects such as "are safeguards against official corruption strong and effective", "are there free and independent media", "is there freedom for nongovernmental organizations, particularly those that are engaged in human rights– and governance-related work", "is there an independent judiciary", etc.

If you have reports that put Hungary at the top on rankings of democratic health, freedom, civil rights, etc — please share them, and we can evaluate their merits. Otherwise, these reports are the most comprehensive I know of, so I have to use those.

[johnisgood]

Political corruption is definitely a huge, pervasive problem in Hungary, and there is a lot of favoritism/nepotism going on. I would also say that the media is not independent either.

[mbork_pl]

Thanks. Just three quick comments.

> The authorities continued to erode the independence of the judiciary.

This is highly debatable, though I do not claim to know enough about this issue to be able to say a lot.

> Violations of LGBTI rights persisted.

I'm not sure what exactly they mean, but I suspect this may be about so-called "same-sex marriage". The definition of marriage as a union of one man and one woman is fortunately written into Polish constitution, which is quite difficult to change, so there's that. (Also, not calling a same-sex relationship a "marriage" does not really violate anyone's rights.)

> Access to abortion was further limited.

Which - given how abortion is basically killing innocent human beings - is a huge step towards freedom (more precisely, the right to live).

EDIT: also, I love how you mention Spain time and again. I can only assume you come from there, and if that's the case, I highly applaud your patriotism.

[tripu]

> Violations of LGBTI rights persisted

Aparently,

> "by the end of [2022], 79 Polish administrative units still declared themselves so-called 'LGBT-free zones'. [...] LGBTI rights defenders faced ongoing criminal and civil proceedings. [...] In January, during court proceedings brought by one activist who had been arbitrarily detained for 24 hours after the so-called Rainbow Night protest in 2020, the police officer who arrested him admitted: 'We were instructed to stop all persons displaying the colours of LGBT, regardless of how they behaved'".

> Given how abortion is basically killing innocent human beings - is a huge step towards freedom

I don't think that condemning a fetus with terrible congenital defects to be born against the will of its parents is a step towards freedom.

> I love how you mention Spain time and again. I can only assume you come from there, and if that's the case, I highly applaud your patriotism.

I don't know whether you're being honest, or sarcastic. In any case: I tongue-in-cheek "defended" Spain above just because @Radim said to me: "coming from a Spaniard? go fuck yourself" ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37914718 ), which I found baffling, irrelevant, and very nasty.

I am against all patriotism and nationalism. I am not "proud" or "ashamed" of privileges or defects that I got by chance, or traits over which I bear no responsibility or I can't control.

Assume I'm from North Korea. Or from Vanuatu. Let's discuss ideas, not individuals, please!

[mbork_pl]

> > "by the end of [2022], 79 Polish administrative units still declared themselves so-called 'LGBT-free zones'.

This one is a widespread fake. As for the rest, I don't know, though I suspect similar. As for

> LGBTI rights defenders faced ongoing criminal and civil proceedings

at least some of the Polish LGBTI right defenders have a rather... rough relationship with the law (outside their activism).

> I don't think that condemning a fetus with terrible congenital defects to be born against the will of its parents is a step towards freedom.

It is. Every human being, irrespective of their age, has the right to live.

> I don't know whether you're being honest, or sarcastic.

100% honest, sorry for not making it clear enough.

> Let's discuss ideas, not individuals, please!

Patriotism is an idea, and a very noble one at that.

Anyway, thanks for keeping the discussion civil. (Also honestly.)