[YetAnotherNick]

If majority of Palestinians support Hamas[1], it isn't that big of a stretch to say Palestinian should pay the price for Hamas' crime. If majority of Israel supports Likud then yeah it is not wrong to blame Israel's people for his action.

Same goes with Russia. I don't have any sympathy for them if Putin is popular and make decisions like Ukraine invasion.

[1]: https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8...

[BiteCode_dev]

The problem with this rhetoric is that bad people have a strong incentives to let others think they have strong support. Unless you are living in the area and can talk to citizens directly, it's going to be damn hard to make any informed decision about that fact.

E.G:

In the link you cite, the numbers come from "the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research". Researching how reliable this source is is a huge and hard work I'm assuming most HN users have neither the resources nor the skill to do. Medias outlet and politicians from all sides have demonstrated little benevolence or competence so trusting them to do that is also a stretch.

Even in France, I'm distrusting statistics from INSEE (!) now because it's so hard to verify neutrality. Condemning people to death based on those information is unwise.

Even if the data is true, where does that lead you? American have elected Bush which lied about WMD and went to war with Irak against the vote of the UN, killing thousands of civilians.

Do Americans deserve to die?

In which case which people from which country would be absolved from that judgement?

[crabbone]

Dude. I lived in Ashkelon for two years. In this time I worked with people from Gaza too. There's no nuance there. Whoever talks about it has no clue. Antisemitism for these people is not a curse word. It's a society that similarly thinks about women as lesser, less deserving beings for example, without any reservations.

To them Jewish lives aren't important. And the fact that Jews are allowed to tell them what to do generates explosive righteous indignation.

Imagine yourself being ruled by chimpanzees. It wouldn't matter to you how benevolent they are, whether you have food or roof above your head. You'd feel like it's absurd, and whoever drove you into the situation where an ape tells you what to do must be brought to justice. This is how the average Gazan feels.

[BiteCode_dev]

That's a more interesting comment than most things I've heard or read on the topic. But again, given I have no experience and I've never been there, it's almost impossible for me to be confident in forming a decent opinion.

[winter_blue]

You're advocating for collective punishment.

Let's say 51% of the U.S. voted for a crazy President from party "X" who became a dictator (illegally), and did terrible horrible unspeakable things.

And, let's say the 49% of the U.S. that didn't support said nutjob President, vehemently protested and did everything they could to oppose him[0].

Now, let's the say the rest of the world unites to defeat the U.S. that had gone crazy.

Would you still advocate that "Americans should pay the price for X's crimes against humanity"?

Would you advocate for the collective punishment of Americans, including those who abhor and hate X's actions (and who even attempted to resist X)?

This is the problem with collective punishments. QED

[0] Keep in mind the extreme difficulty of revolting against a government that has the most technologically-advanced military in the world.

[YetAnotherNick]

Yes, I would say that that US should be blamed. As a country, the leader represents the people unless it has been forced like North Korea. For all we know Palestinians had power to replace Hamas if they didn't liked them. If someone blames Americans for say Vietnam war, it isn't undeserved even though not all Americans supported it.

There is basically no other option if you think about it. Either we should be fine palestianians choosing Hamas or we can force Palestians to not have a choice in leadership. Second is more violent but that is what is done now.

[ceejayoz]

From your article:

> Head pollster Khalil Shikaki, who has been surveying Palestinian public opinion for more than two decades, called it a “dramatic” shift, but said it also resembles previous swings toward Hamas during times of confrontation. Those all dissipated within three to six months as Hamas failed to deliver on promises of change.

It's like when George W. Bush had 90% approval in the US after 9/11; it doesn't really fairly reflect normal opinion.

[palmfacehn]

This is one of the many downsides of democracy as a mandate for governance. If you don't like war or violence, "You should have voted harder". Specially prepared polling statistics or the misleading premises of democracy can be used to conflate the state with the populace. Personification of the state is another common trope.

The concept of 'total war' follow from the above. It is a foregone conclusion from democratic premises and the incentives of officials.

[YetAnotherNick]

> Bush had 90% approval in the US after 9/11; it doesn't really fairly reflect normal opinion.

I would still say it's not wrong to blame American's from Bush's action.

[winter_blue]

It absolutely would be wrong to blame the anti-war anti-GOP anti-neocon people who opposed the war vehemently and protested on the streets in opposition against that war. It would also be absolutely wrong to kill such anti-GOP people via indiscriminate bombing.

[YetAnotherNick]

It's not an individual blame, but sometimes innocent suffers the decisions of the leader. Like I am not sympathetic to Russia at all regarding sanctions even though I know not all Russians support Putin's plan.

And American's absolutely do suffer from their President's actions(although not that much).

[ceejayoz]

It might be wrong to blow up half of DC to take out Republican leadership, though.

[jfengel]

That's kind of an interesting analogy, since DC itself is an overwhelmingly Democratic city. They themselves would love to be rid of Republican leadership, who have a strong influence on city policy via Congress. They did not select them; they were sent from elsewhere.

If you offered to blow up the city in order to take out Republican leadership, more than a few would at least be willing to consider that tradeoff.

[zelphirkalt]

So ... if the majority of Israelis support the IDF, then that makes then they should pay for the crimes of the IDF? Yeah, I am not really sure I would want to go there.

[mpol]

Problem with this kind of thinking is that you can always blame the other party. But blame will not solve the issue. Both parties, Hamas and Isreaeli government do bad things. Staying into "blame" thinking will not change the situation.

Dead civilians are always a tragedy, if they are Israeli or Palestinian. Only if and when peope are tired of killing, will this come to a stop.

[AnimalMuppet]

In order for the killing to stop, some people responsible for previous killing are going to have to remain unpunished.

It is as simple (and as difficult) as that. You're going to have to sell that to at least one side, probably both.

[yonaguska]

> The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party.

So the other 47% are culpable? The vast majority of people are victims of their own governments. Indiscriminate war is unconscionable- the biggest losers are always the little people.

[foolswisdom]

Fatah may have formally renounced terrorism, but they doesn't mean that don't promote the save thing. Don't forget about the martyrs fund <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyr...>.

[Tarq0n]

Should Americans pay for the overthrowing of democratic governments in Iran and Panama?