[varispeed]

Why would you look to avoid paying tax though?

I can understand doing so in a country that is squandering money - like the UK, where you pay through the nose and get very little in return, but Germany? I heard public services and basically what you get for your tax is pretty decent.

[LeanderK]

why is this even the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about the legal form? This is highly unethical in general and really just super selfish.

F*k you if you avoid taxes, especially in a country like Germany where society paid for your university studies etc.

[nforgerit]

German here. You mean the German education system that has been going down the last 2-3 decades? Are you even aware that the German tax system is redirecting tax income from smaller companies to richer ones (e.g. if they soon introduce "reduced electricity prices" for some heavy industry companies)? Are you aware that the system taxes employees relatively high and companies and capital income pretty low with thousands of tax exempts? Are you aware that government service cost are skyrocketing because they didn't reform anything in the recent 2 decades? Are you aware they poured ~4bn EUR into "digitization" of government services and nothing's working?

The whole system has been broken by corporate lobbies and unethical politicians who just wanted to be voted for. Now tell me about the great social system in Germany that is worth all the tax money.

[LeanderK]

I am sorry but you can not work in the company or build a company in the country and avoid taxes. Your taxes go directly into these things. All the rest of the society has to pay taxes, they can't avoid taxes on their car via an elaborate foreign holding structure. The only way to change it to your liking is via politics, or build it in a different country respecting their rules. Get involved in local politics, especially the state of the school system and many other things are decided on a very low level that can be directly influenced by your district.

Everyone contributes and we get back free education (our universities are still good btw. and for certain topics really good) and from what I hear about schools from parents they still work, even with expanded care times. Bürgergeld exists if you really hit a rough spot. Super cheap public transit (50€ per month!) and autobahn is still existing.

You say that what Germans lack in competence they make up with arrogance, but it's really to complain about everything and be super pessimistic all the time. You can not just choose to avoid taxes, that's just highly unethical and unfair to everyone who's paying their share and super selfish. I stand by my word:

F*k you if you avoid taxes

[nforgerit]

I highly respect your idealism. I really do. I used to think like that around 15 years ago. I'm still some kind of social democrat by heart (not the party but rather the concept).

But what I learned in recent couple of years is that German leadership (rich people, old industries, bureaucrats, managers, politicians et al) set up a system that is actively squeezing out the middle-class. Doesn't really matter which subystem you're looking at (healthcare, public transport, education, taxation, civil services, childcare, housing, pensions, energy, and more) you'll see that all things have been set up to make rich people richer and let the other 99% struggle with pretty much everything.

I'm not avoiding any taxes and strongly believe in social systems with solidarity and help for the weaker people, but I learned that (a) change is not welcome (rather actively prohibited) in Germany and (b) fighting windmills just lets you burn out.

[FirmwareBurner]

>I am sorry but you can not work in the company or build a company in the country and avoid taxes.

Literally all billionaires and big companies are doing it.

[mbrain]

non-German living in Germany, I couldn't agree more. When I complain about this, Germans usually reply with 'then go back to your home'.

[nforgerit]

Ha, that's a very typical answer my compatriots would give. What Germans lack in competence they make up with arrogance. That just seems to be our thing.

[FirmwareBurner]

>Germans usually reply with 'then go back to your home'

"You're country is corrupt as hell."

Eastern Europeans: "We know"

Germans : "Then go back to your country" OR "Impossible, we're Europe's number one economy!!!11one"

[gv83]

And you have not seen Italy!

[throwaway60722]

There are states with much lower taxes that also pay for education. Why should Germans pay so much?

There are people who didn't go to university doing business too.

[slow_typist]

In the eighties, income tax in Germany could go up to 56%. It is much lower know. Taxes are somewhat relative in space and time.

[throwaway60722]

Just over the border is a country with effective income tax for self-employed businessmen around 5-15%.

[OfSanguineFire]

I have been self-employed under a Polish business (działalność gospodarcza) for the last few years. With income tax plus mandatory pension and health contributions, over a third of my income goes to taxes or other mandatory fees (like the requirement to have a licensed accountant keep your books). It really isn’t much different than most other EU countries. And of course one pays a comparable VAT on shopping.

Often in Poland people say “Why are you running your business here? Base it in Czech Republic!” The grass always is greener on the other side.

[throwaway60722]

In Czech Republic as self-employed ("živnostník") your effective tax+insurance rate for income up to 2M CZK (~ 80k EUR) is never more than 15%. I have SW contractor friends paying around 8-12% - including health and social insurance. No need to have any accountant at all for income under 2M CZK, you just keep your invoices and sum your income at the end of a year, the tax return form is online and the sum of income is your only input.

[Luc]

Why not name the country?

[throwaway60722]

There are not so many options you couldn't just check yourself... But to answer your question - Poland and Czech Republic.

[Lionga]

There are many, Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria, Andorra to name a few

[mbrain]

I would guess Poland

[LeanderK]

you are not forced to live and do business here. Feel free to move to another country if you don't like the taxes. But you can't just avoid the taxes because you feel like it. I don't care how much you would loose by not avoiding taxes.

Society only functions if everyone contributes. And the rest of society pays their taxes, you know. They can't avoid paying taxes on their car through a foreign holding structure. It's a slap on their face because you feel like you should have more.

[FirmwareBurner]

>Society only functions if everyone contributes. And the rest of society pays their taxes, you know.

Yes, everyone except German businesses dealing in cash only who don't issue receipts, and the likes of Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Airbus, NXP, IKEA, ST etc. and all these conglomerate with complex tax avoidance schemes spread across Netherlands, Ireland, Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, Switzerland and some Caribbean islands who neither fully belonging to the British or Dutch crowns nor are fully independent nations, but some fuzzy situation in between.

You see, once we let so many players legally avoid paying taxes in broad daylight, it's difficult to uphold the social contract that "we should all pay taxes" as then it turns into a crabs in a bucket situation where the veil is lifted and the Average Joe sees through the cash-grab scam that the tax system is on the working class, and will do everything in his power to avoid paying taxes as well.

If you want people to respect the social contract of the welfare state, we need to hold everyone accountable to it with no exceptions, not just the poor suckers who have no means of dodging it or fighting back, while the super wealthy are laughing all the way to the bank.

[wiseowise]

> F*k you if you avoid taxes, especially in a country like Germany where society paid for your university studies etc.

People can move in from other countries, you know.

[Lacerda69]

and they would also benefit from the social net the state provides plus everything else taxes pay for, so your point is what exactly?

[LeanderK]

> People can move in from other countries, you know.

You can also move away from germany. But you can't move to germany and avoid taxes while creating a company here (OP was literally: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany)

[wiseowise]

I’m not saying that you should avoid taxes.

[dappermanneke]

when you start working you will understand

[ponector]

Everyone is trying to minimize taxes in a legal way. The best example is Apple. With enormous profits they pay almost zero federal taxes.

[mbrain]

When you ask about ways to minimize, you are treated as a criminal who is avoiding taxes.