[broken-kebab]

I think it's better to avoid time-related adjectives like "archaic" when talking about PLs. For starters it doesn't really mean much in general: in software development fashions come, and go, and then reappear as "new" again. Secondly, Pascal syntax is of the same historical age as that of C, and the ML languages. Would you say that C# (or Haskell) is syntactically archaic?

[kagakuninja]

OK, how about "cumbersome" or "unnecessarily verbose". I haven't used modern Pascal, but the ancient version I used was also very limited.

I am 60, have used many languages, and used to love C and C++. I consider C and C++ archaic and Java is border-line. I thought Java was cool 10-20 years ago, but I've moved on to Scala.

[broken-kebab]

It's verbose for sure (though Pascal's overall amount of boileplate probably takes less space compared to Java code). Structurally it's almost the same beast (both inherited from Algol), with notable exceptions like for loop.

Scala feels more modern than C to me too, when talking about language concepts/features. Regarding syntax they are in the same basket.

[timbit42]

More people are familiar with Pascal and its syntax so I understand why people discuss it so much but it was succeeded by Modula-2, Ada, and Oberon which have better syntax.

One thing that is better about the syntax that I really like is the removal of BEGIN and END everywhere except around code in MODULEs and PROCEDUREs. IF/THEN/ELSE/END, FOR/DO/END, REPEAT/UNTIL, WHILE/DO/END, CASE/ELSE/END, no longer have BEGIN/END, even if there are multiple statements in them. This makes the code less verbose than C and C++ and equally or more compact vertically than them, depending on whether you put your braces on separate lines.

[jchw]

I'm not convinced: the term archaic implies that something is obsolete or subjectively old-fashioned, not just that it's necessarily old. C# isn't archaic in part because C never stopped being relevant this whole time and because C# syntax has evolved significantly in recent years.

[broken-kebab]

It's not something to differentiate between them: neither is obsolete as long as somebody uses it to earn, and Pascal dialects has been evolving as well as C#, while neither deviated significantly from their roots. TypeScript (which is rather new PL) uses Pascal-style for types. Haskell, and Ocaml are niche too, and the syntax is 98% from 70s, but it still feels like a new for someone who sees them for the first time. And let's not even touch what hardcore Pythonistas think about what "old-fashioned" means.

Pascal syntax is non-mainstream nowadays, as well as Lisps, MLs, and lots of others, but neither fits to the word "archaic"

[jchw]

Sorry, I am not convinced. To me, Pascal's syntax and source code organization is archaic. Even more archaic would be COBOL and BCPL. On a somewhat similar level to Pascal, perhaps Erlang as well.

People's opinions do change over time, but I do not think it's likely that there is a renaissance awaiting Pascal's overall design decisions, specifically the ways in which Pascal differs from C. That's because differing from C is costly and requires justification. In some cases, I think Pascal's decisions just proved wrong; like the lack of short-circuiting in boolean expressions. I assume modern Pascal compilers have resolved this, but it's a good example of how I think things go: ideas that improve the status quo are worth bringing back, ideas that have a lot of switching costs are a hard sell.

I also understand that sometimes the difference may seem superficial, and that's because they are. Are Pascal units really vastly different from modern translation units/modules? Somewhat, but not that much. But it differs enough that someone not familiar with Pascal needs some time to adapt, whereas almost anyone with programming experience of any level can pick up Go, because it's stupidly simple. It does differ from C and other languages that are still contemporary, but when it does differ it's often good: the type syntax and declaration syntax is massively simpler than C, for example. (And yes, Pascal's type syntax is also better, at least by some measures.)

I'm happy to discuss these matters, but I will also be completely honest: I'm not particularly moved by this line of argument. It feels somewhere between semantics and an implicit desire to consider a future where Pascal syntax somehow becomes in vogue again as it was in the early 2000's. Maybe an evolved Pascal, but not the Pascal of today. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong; I'm just calling it the way I see it.

[badsectoracula]

> like the lack of short-circuiting in boolean expressions. I assume modern Pascal compilers have resolved this

I think your ideas on Pascal are a little outdated if you assume short circuit boolean expression are a modern Pascal compiler change. Turbo Pascal, one of the by far most common dialects, had that since the 80s, meaning this change has been around for four decades (assuming Turbo Pascal didn't take it from some other popular at the time dialect like USCD Pascal).